tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post112649840703467472..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The Story Goes Round…The Attempted Coup is at Hand, and Egypt is the Place. (revised 9/13)Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126743472743152282005-09-14T20:17:00.000-04:002005-09-14T20:17:00.000-04:00I think that kind of hair-splitting is unwise, Mar...I think that kind of hair-splitting is <I>unwise</I>, Martin. <BR/><BR/>Regardless of what continent an ethnic European like Kirker was born/raised on (even if he were, say, an Afrikaaner of hundreds of years of roots there!), he ought to know that "African" <I>has</I> been used pejoratively (especially as a stand-in for blackness), and continues to be so (ab)used today.<BR/><BR/>Being on the short end of the straw in one power-dichotomy (sexuality), shouldn't blind one to being on the dominant side (race) in others. Being part of the Church Universal, Anglicans have to be aware of EVERY kind of abuse of power . . . and "respecting the dignity of every human being" (BCP, 1979) work to overcome them ALL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126722923982379642005-09-14T14:35:00.000-04:002005-09-14T14:35:00.000-04:00JC Fisher might think differently if perhaps she k...JC Fisher might think differently if perhaps she knew that Richard Kirker was born in Nigeria and lived there and in South Africa until he was 19. He is an "African".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126708305996909162005-09-14T10:31:00.000-04:002005-09-14T10:31:00.000-04:00" The political moves in the USA not to create any..." The political moves in the USA not to create any new Bishops, when the demand was only in respect to sodomites becoming Bishops, can be seen by many as the last straw. "<BR/><BR/>It may in fact have been intended as a political move, but I've always thought the decision to abstain from making new bishops makes a lot of sense. It underlines the fact that in the case of the US church the immediate presenting issue is not about governance so much as it is about discernment. The people of New Hampshire followed the rules for identifying the person God intended for their bishop and came up with Gene Robinson. If it turns out Akinola et al are right about God's will for the church, then the process itself is implicated in coming to the wrong conclusion. Since we are an "episcopal" church, getting this process right is pretty important. So, until we clear this up at the next GC, we won't use the process again.<BR/><BR/>This raises a question I've meant to ask: what does the Anglican Right say about the process in New Hampshire? I always hear people talking about GC 2003 as if it were the only player in this. Do they say the discernment process was flawed in some way, other than coming to the wrong conclusion? Do they claim that "special interest groups" highjacked the process, for example by getting lots of sympathetic delegates elected at parish meetings? Or was it a normal convention, about half full of delegates who only agreed to serve because they felt guilty about turning down their rector's request that they run for vestry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126695206718898502005-09-14T06:53:00.000-04:002005-09-14T06:53:00.000-04:00I guess my biggest concern is from Akinola's own s...I guess my biggest concern is from Akinola's own statement (see Thinking Anglicans for today, 14 September):<BR/><BR/>"The South/South Encounter is a gathering of like-minded Anglicans"<BR/><BR/>Funny, but I always thought "encounter" left open the possibility that there would be at least one or two voices who might NOT be like-minded, that different opinions and viewpoints might be heard, and that all might benefit from the contact with diversity.<BR/><BR/>By excluding those who do not exhibit "like-mindedness" on this one issue, the really important stuff can't happen.<BR/><BR/>The biggest weasel-word in the Windsor Report is 'mission'--often used, never clearly defined. "Like-mindedness" only serves 'mission' if it is defined as making everyone just like us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126662733946185262005-09-13T21:52:00.000-04:002005-09-13T21:52:00.000-04:00I agree with Father Bill. +Williams could send a ...I agree with Father Bill. +Williams could send a powerful message by going and by being the servant of the servants. Besides, Africa has come into her own in the Church and most of us in the west have yet to acknowledge that reality. It doesn't have to be about Akinola's personality. It can be about the cheif pastor of our Communion acknowledging the gifts of African participation in the fullness of life of our Church.<BR/><BR/>But ultimately the decision remains with the ABC. I pray for him, as I pray for all of us. I thank God for Rowan Williams. I don't know that another person could fill the shoes he's filling with such humility and sense of apostolic mission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126620732573937092005-09-13T10:12:00.000-04:002005-09-13T10:12:00.000-04:00" I hope that this is a surprise to no one. The c..." I hope that this is a surprise to no one. The changes in the USA, Canada, and elsewhere are things that need to be addressed. The political moves in the USA not to create any new Bishops, when the demand was only in respect to sodomites becoming Bishops, can be seen by many as the last straw. Good faith discussions are not happening."<BR/><BR/>Hmm... let me get this straight. We are damned if we make bishops, and damned if we don't. Right!<BR/><BR/>The expressed intent of the decision to suspend consents was to comply with the requests of the Windsor report without comprimising those who at this moment think some lesbian or gay priests should be candidates. It was precisely equitable, no one could be confirmed. <BR/><BR/>Nothing in the decision prohibits discussions. Quite the contrary, it makes all discussions in all diocese open without putting a person in view. Given that one of the problems expressed by some conservatives was the exceptional decency of +Gene, that is arguably a good thing. Forget personalities and discuss the situation. <BR/><BR/>Of course, one does not see Network (does that sound like Mafia or what?) or Anglicans Missing In Action sorts actually seeking to have discussions. These are the people who vote for ressolutions calling for discussion and the refuse to have them. The sight of Peter Akinola running from a room to avoid meeting Louie Crew is the icon of conservative discussion.<BR/><BR/>Of course, if one thinks that only the chosen who are like themselves should be elected bishop, then I suppose it is a problem. But the last straw? Does anyone really think that Peter Akinola cares?<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126610872664060292005-09-13T07:27:00.000-04:002005-09-13T07:27:00.000-04:00J.C. Fisher's comment on Richard Kirker's thoughtl...J.C. Fisher's comment on Richard Kirker's thoughtless lumping together of "African homophobes" certainly points out that just because one group of persons sees itself as the wronged/persecuted party does not mean it is immune from saying very careless, thougthless things.<BR/><BR/>All of us need to be very aware of our use of language, and the meta-messages behind what we say, as well as the messages themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126593611632959502005-09-13T02:40:00.000-04:002005-09-13T02:40:00.000-04:00Well, if not outright racism, I certainly regret t...Well, if not outright <I>racism</I>, I certainly regret the <B>racial focus</B> from such statement's as Richard Kirker's (from the Scotsman article) "Personally, I'd rather see a split within the ranks of the Anglican community than for people of principle to bow to the demands of homophobic Africans."<BR/><BR/>Why is it relevant that they're <B>Africans</B>? "people of principle" shouldn't bow to homophobes ANYWHERE!<BR/><BR/>[Again, I would remind Kirker et al: LGBT Anglicans have had <B>no better friends</B> than +Desmond Tutu (saint in our time) and +Njongonkulu Ndugane. They may not represent the (current) majority of African Anglican bishops . . . but they're certainly no less "African" than +Akinola or +Malongo!]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126581260686045332005-09-12T23:14:00.000-04:002005-09-12T23:14:00.000-04:00I am grieving; my heart breaks. My Sisters! My B...I am grieving; my heart breaks. My Sisters! My Brothers! It is so hard to go back!<BR/><BR/>Christ have mercy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126563058064633842005-09-12T18:10:00.000-04:002005-09-12T18:10:00.000-04:00I hope and pray the article is as well informed as...I hope and pray the article is as well informed as one of DV's articles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126557788353940012005-09-12T16:43:00.000-04:002005-09-12T16:43:00.000-04:00I hope that this is a surprise to no one. The ch...I hope that this is a surprise to no one. The changes in the USA, Canada, and elsewhere are things that need to be addressed. The political moves in the USA not to create any new Bishops, when the demand was only in respect to sodomites becoming Bishops, can be seen by many as the last straw. Good faith discussions are not happening. It is US style politics and it is not a discussion between Christians. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me the question is not that a split will occur, be how it will occur. Will USA and Canada be asked to leave or will things split down the middle? <BR/><BR/>ScottAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126548221644011282005-09-12T14:03:00.000-04:002005-09-12T14:03:00.000-04:00I've got to the point I'm looking forward to Akino...I've got to the point I'm looking forward to Akinola to start his break away church of which he will appoint himself 'pope' or something like that. Will be nice to see the business of the communion settle down to ministry. <BR/><BR/>And yes, Williams should stay away, a long way away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126532556827325732005-09-12T09:42:00.000-04:002005-09-12T09:42:00.000-04:00I would like to see Abp Williams go - taking his t...I would like to see Abp Williams go - taking his towel and basin. Footwashing is at the heart of leadership in Christianity.Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126532367216977412005-09-12T09:39:00.000-04:002005-09-12T09:39:00.000-04:00I think Mark is right--++Rowan should stay away fr...I think Mark is right--++Rowan should stay away from this. It is no longer an Anglican meeting, it seeks to undermine the communion, and thus ++Rowan has no reasonable part to play in it.<BR/><BR/>This whole thing is becoming like an ugly, bitter divorce where one side is desperately trying to hang on, and the other is willing--so long as demands on an ever-expanding list are met.<BR/><BR/>Best perhaps for both parties to leave, even though it is too late to do so with dignity. At some point in the future, it may be possible to talk about ecumenical dialogue, or re-establish a relationship on reasonable grounds. But a time of separation seems in order.<BR/><BR/>Divorce is not the worst thing that can happen in some marriages--schism may not be the worst thing that can happen in the church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126531384117461302005-09-12T09:23:00.000-04:002005-09-12T09:23:00.000-04:00Williams could simply ignore the intended insult a...Williams could simply ignore the intended insult and sit at Akinola's feet (symbolically or literally) to receive teaching. This gesture of humility might bring home the pares in primus inter pares and actually win over some of those who witnessed it. Won't win over Akinola himself that easily though. There will be a split. The only question is how large. <BR/><BR/>This conflict is already charged with questions of race and empire. It is ironic that the forces of militarism, greed, racism, and sexism are aligning themselves with the Global South (for now, they will discard their allies if and when they've got what they wanted). Suddenly, US conservatives hear the cries of the South, when the South tells them something they want to hear. What about the AIDS crisis? What about the criminal behavior of multinational corporations? <BR/><BR/>If the thing with the throne is really carried out, how Rowan responds will carry enormous symbolic weight. I personally would like to see him go and try to be a pastor. He may not reach Akinola but the message of treating Akinola like a brother and an equal will not be lost on some.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126523957041727242005-09-12T07:19:00.000-04:002005-09-12T07:19:00.000-04:00The quote from the article said, "I also hear that...The quote from the article said, "I also hear that African Anglicans plan to place a throne in a conference room and ask Archbishop Akinola to sit in it - while Dr. Williams is supposed to stand by and watch. Where will that leave the man, and where will that leave the Queen, who is head of the Church of England?"<BR/><BR/>Noting straigtforwardly shows racism in this, but remembering that the work is being done by a coalition of African (CAPA) and western hemosphere (CAPAC) folk, it seemed to me that the phrase, "African Anglicans plan..." singled out the African church leaders, and the picture then was of Africans acting "tribally". It may have been very much an over sensitive remark on my part, given my current grieving over the terrible press coverage of events in New Orleans. It also doesn't help that a product of the US I am aware of my own racism all the time!<BR/><BR/>At any rate, it was an aside and not central to the point of the paragraph which is that no matter the flavor of the origional statement, the ecclesial diplomatic character of a throne or special chair is not lost.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126523685519029952005-09-12T07:14:00.000-04:002005-09-12T07:14:00.000-04:00In a letter in March 1833, John Keble said that sc...In a letter in March 1833, John Keble said that schism in the church was something "I would not so very much deprecate, if I were sure of getting rid of the right persons." It's obvious that Akinola, Malango, the CAPA and CAPAC people feel this way about those who do not agree with them on every issue.<BR/><BR/>Let them go--goodbye and godspeed. If a time comes when both sides want to talk about reconciliation, without either side dictating the terms, then talk can happen. <BR/><BR/>The important thing is that they have not beek "kicked out" (although I am sure some will try to put that spin on it). They have freely chosen to leave, and nobody should try to hold them against their conscience or will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1126520198342835002005-09-12T06:16:00.000-04:002005-09-12T06:16:00.000-04:00Can you elaborate on the aspects of racism in the ...Can you elaborate on the aspects of racism in the statement regarding the throne??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com