tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post115080737831238878..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Send Lawyers, Guns and MoneyMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150897402651703762006-06-21T09:43:00.000-04:002006-06-21T09:43:00.000-04:00Tim Chesterton:I did not mean to offend you or tho...Tim Chesterton:<BR/><BR/>I did not mean to offend you or those associated with 'Teens Encounter Christ' or 'Together Encountering Christ' by referring to the Episcopal Church as TEC.<BR/><BR/>However, the internet is full of acronyms for a variety of things and entities because people make an effort to cut down on their keystrokes. Such as: fwiw, imo, imho, iirc, btw, RCC, EO, EU, ECUSA, PECUSA, and yes, TEC.<BR/><BR/>I seem to recall a discussion on this very blogsite about how to properly reference the Episcopal Church (although, it could have been somewhere else) that went something like this:<BR/><BR/>The Protestant Episcopal Church in the U.S.A. (PECUSA) doesn't seem to fit, since we haven't been protesting anything since we won our indepence from Britain. The Episcopal Church in the U.S.A. (ECUSA) works better, but it ignores dioceses outside the boundaries of the United States, Columbia for example. Therefore, simply referring to it as the Episcopal Church (TEC) makes the most sense.<BR/><BR/>And since almost everything we are talking about on this site has to do with the Episcopal Church and not 'Teens Encounter Christ' or 'Together Encountering Christ,' it is hard for me to believe that TEC would be misconstrued for another entity.<BR/><BR/>Thank you, though, for bringing to our attention other groups that use the acronym TEC.Reverend Ref +https://www.blogger.com/profile/12608521436386973234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150870291348549622006-06-21T02:11:00.000-04:002006-06-21T02:11:00.000-04:00"Perhaps the moratorium of common suffering should..."Perhaps the moratorium of common suffering should be invoked: No blessings for them, no blessings for us."<BR/><BR/>Well, as you might guess, Mark+, I'm going to reply, "Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!"<BR/><BR/>I'll even bump the post in question to the top for anyone you want to show it to.Caeliushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15490717245066578132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150855716044378582006-06-20T22:08:00.000-04:002006-06-20T22:08:00.000-04:00Here are some thoughts building on work I did last...Here are some <A HREF="http://regula.blogspot.com/2006/06/how-do-we-do-change.html" REL="nofollow">thoughts</A> building on work I did last summer and composed into a resolution last month by <A HREF="http://auluslactinus.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_auluslactinus_archive.html" REL="nofollow">Caelius Spinator</A> (Scroll down to June 1) and coupled with rev ref+'s thoughts.Closedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04752595488795781895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150853212452346662006-06-20T21:26:00.000-04:002006-06-20T21:26:00.000-04:00Well, I must say the Zevon lyrics brought a welcom...Well, I must say the Zevon lyrics brought a welcome and world-weary smile to my face. I got home from Convention yesterday, still high from the election of +Schori. But it didn't take long to bring me down, although I'm grateful that A161 was shot down (to continue with the guns analogy) twice in the House of Deputies today. But for heaven's sake, where do those Bishops think we are? They can't just make stuff up because they don't like what the deputies did. Can they?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150843319584092152006-06-20T18:41:00.000-04:002006-06-20T18:41:00.000-04:00Tim, be sure to send complains to the Texas Enviro...Tim, be sure to send complains to the <A HREF="http://tec.org/" REL="nofollow">Texas Environmental Center</A>, <A HREF="http://tec.com/" REL="nofollow">Telephone Electronics Corporation</A>, <A HREF="http://www.tec.army.mil/" REL="nofollow">The Topographic Engineering Center</A>, and a few others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150837893640023822006-06-20T17:11:00.000-04:002006-06-20T17:11:00.000-04:00To reverend ref+:Earlier today I posted the follow...To reverend ref+:<BR/><BR/>Earlier today I posted the following on Ruth Gledhill's blog:<BR/><BR/>Ruth:<BR/><BR/>In North America, 'TEC' is a recognised abbreviation for a movement variously called 'Teens Encounter Christ' or 'Together Encountering Christ'. This is a very positive movement through which the Holy Spirit has worked in the lives of thousands of young people (for information about our Edmonton Diocesan TEC movement, see http://www.edmonton.anglican.org/tec/). It grieves me to see this acronym now being unilaterally expropriated by the Episcopal Church in the USA with no thought or consideration for a movement which has used it for decades. I'm not sure if you originated it, or if American Episcopalians did it themselves. Either way, as a Canadian Anglican who has been involved in the TEC movement, I would like to protest most strenuously about this.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely in Christ,<BR/><BR/>Tim Chesterton<BR/>http://timchesterton.blogspot.comTim Chestertonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13676859074652475474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150836832380351662006-06-20T16:53:00.000-04:002006-06-20T16:53:00.000-04:00Seems a bit overwrought for a far-sight, Sir. You...Seems a bit overwrought for a far-sight, Sir. Your predictive powers did not see that the "prgogressive" path would lead to the lonliness of the "point" position at best and the solitude of the totally lost at worst.<BR/><BR/>You have the progressive agenda in full swing and need apologize to no one, of course. If it is the Spirit, it'll last and thrive on its own apart from the AC and the Romans and the Orthodox. But nothing like progress..........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150829588247074522006-06-20T14:53:00.000-04:002006-06-20T14:53:00.000-04:00Jim over at Daily Episcopalian makes it sound li...Jim over at <A HREF="http://www.edow.org" REL="nofollow"> Daily Episcopalian </A> makes it sound like there's about a 50/50 chance that A 161 will make it out of the House of Deputies. (12:36 pm EST) I haven't checked other sites for more current updates.<BR/> <BR/>This effort must feel like pulling teeth regardless of where one's hopes fall. I know as a diocesan convention deputy that the closer it gets to the end of the convention, the easier people find it to pass legislation they truly don't support. I pray this does not come to pass in Columbus.<BR/>Peace,<BR/>JJim Straderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16781331975297370366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150822794933388392006-06-20T12:59:00.000-04:002006-06-20T12:59:00.000-04:00I am troubled and saddened and bewildered by the u...I am troubled and saddened and bewildered by the use of a "preemptive" apology -- and I take it very, very personally. Your analogy is appropriate, Mark. A preemptive apology, such as the one tacked on to the A161, says, "We're sorry for all the above, but you'll just have to put up with it for now..." In the interest of WHAT?!? Unity?!? Ask any LGBT brother or sister how they feel about the so-called "bonds of affection." Bonds of affection from an Archbishop who once said we should have millstones placed around our necks?!?<BR/><BR/>While yesterday I was elated -- and PROUD to be an Episcopalian -- if this resolution passes as is I will be profoundly disappointed...<BR/><BR/>A country parsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150821789365897792006-06-20T12:43:00.000-04:002006-06-20T12:43:00.000-04:00LizW-- I believe the point is that it is LGBTQ Ang...LizW-- I believe the point is that it is LGBTQ Anglicans who are being told to suffer for the sake of the Communion, not either liberals or conservatives. (In fact, it is liberals who are saying that LGBTQ folks need to suffer for the Communion, to wait -- conservatives would just as soon there weren't any LGBTQ Anglicans in the first place, since the sin of loving the same sex is apparently greater than the sins of pride, sloth, gluttony, etc.)<BR/><BR/>I rather like Reverend Ref+'s idea that we should offer a moratorium on all consecrations, blessings, marriages, etc. until we reach clarity on how to discern who is or is not a "fit" recipient. (Though, of course, people could still legally marry and have a private blessing in their homes...*wry grin*)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150820948327619212006-06-20T12:29:00.000-04:002006-06-20T12:29:00.000-04:00I'm beginning to think that indeed ++Williams and ...I'm beginning to think that indeed ++Williams and others were right on one count: we don't understand communion. Now I would say neither does ++Williams et al or ways would have been found to insure the deepest level of communion both among the sister Churches of the AC and among lgbt Anglican Christians in the Windsor Report. Rather we who are lgbt are commended to be sacrificed and to like it as "we" figure out how "you" fit into "our" Church. <BR/><BR/>I've said it before, this is the difference between pro-inclusion liberals and a Pauline understanding of the Body. If unity requires suffering, we all need bear the marks, not just lgbt Anglican Christians, otherwise we need to recognize that our unity requires marginalization in honest straightforward terms. <BR/><BR/>The pro-inclusion liberal apology justifies a continuation of a softened marginalization, and that is a deep theological problem, for we cannot be saved by scapegoating and marginalizing and recommending others to crosses of our making. The deeply sado-masochistic tendencies in Christianity seem to emerge whenever its time to recommend a cross to someone else. <BR/><BR/>General moratoria on consents and blessings (of marriages, unions, monastic vows) undo this dynamic which is the greater dynamic that needs be undone for us to live side by side/face to face (only then can full inclusion occur because it will not be in the hands of the powerful but in the hands of God). <BR/><BR/>I wrote at Fr. Jake's place:<BR/><BR/>The point is the marginalizing dynamic continues now just softened, and pro-inclusion liberals don't seem to get that that is at the deep heart of the problem, and it is a problem of theology and of failing to recognize that doing something that necessitates such an apology at all is a strain on communion with lgbt Anglican Christians. <BR/><BR/>I suggest rather than an apology tacked on as a slap in the face that something that says that "We recognize also that in passing this resolution, that our communion with and our bonds of affection with lgbt Anglican Christians are also strained, [that our ability to provide respectful and dignified ritual and pastor care in the public manner we provide heterosexual Anglican Christians is impaired], and we ask forgiveness for not finding solutions that would seek to maintain the highest degree of communion with both our sister Churches and lgbt members of Christ's Body. [And given we as bishops, shepherds of Christ's flock, and priests, given to the care of souls, have consented to this legislation, we understand in the eyes of lgbt Anglican Christians that we have failed them pastorally, have bound even lgbt bishops and priests to impairment in ministering with lgbt Anglican Christians, and seek therefore to empower, to encourage, and to fund lay ministries to provide dignified and respectful ritual care worthy of the public celebration of their life passages and faithful responses to Christ in covenant relationships, the adoption of children, and the like.]Closedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04752595488795781895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150815731140861862006-06-20T11:02:00.000-04:002006-06-20T11:02:00.000-04:00On what basis does he conclude that it's the liber...On what basis does he conclude that it's the liberals in the Communion who are being called to suffering and not the conservatives, I wonder?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1150813071196234002006-06-20T10:17:00.000-04:002006-06-20T10:17:00.000-04:00Mark,Thank you for your continuing comments. With...Mark,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your continuing comments. With everything going on, I often find myself speechless.<BR/><BR/>A few thoughts though:<BR/>1) Re: election of bishops, shouldn't we "exercise considerable caution" in all elections and ensure that if we don't elect a homosexual then neither do we elect Duncan/Iker types who would work against TEC?<BR/><BR/>2) Re: a hold on same sex blessings, maybe we should hold off on all marriages until 2009. Although, admittedly, that is a much tougher sell than above.<BR/><BR/>3)Re: Iker and "APO," is it possible to help him along with this and remove him from orders in TEC?<BR/><BR/>Just some thoughts in my muddled head.Reverend Ref +https://www.blogger.com/profile/12608521436386973234noreply@blogger.com