tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post115141346157042095..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Dependence, Independence and InterdependenceMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151592294701100872006-06-29T10:44:00.000-04:002006-06-29T10:44:00.000-04:00This is probably a dead thread anyway, but I just ...This is probably a dead thread anyway, but I just want to say that I agree with Bill Carroll (not unusual) with the caveat that I think the fruition of the notion of an Anglican Covenant extremely unlikely (schism seems to be happening much more quickly that the long process ++Rowan envisions for the development of a covenant).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151553622046064672006-06-29T00:00:00.000-04:002006-06-29T00:00:00.000-04:00Anonymous said... It is a travesty that the script...<I>Anonymous said... <BR/>It is a travesty that the scripture is used only when it serves and supports your own agenda...either you believe it or you don't, and if you don't, then at least don't defile it by quoting it.</I><BR/><BR/>You're a <B>supporter</B> for the sacramental <I>equality</I> of those whom God-made-gay, I take it? (While I would perhaps use more diplomatic language, you have accurately expressed my sentiments, Anon!)<BR/><BR/>*****<BR/><BR/><I>In 2003, The Primates asked us not to proceed with blessing SSUs or consecrating +Robinson. The ACC asked us not to proceed. Lambeth asked us not to proceed</I><BR/><BR/>Phil:<BR/><BR/>Did the ACC ask us not to proceed? (citation, please)<BR/><BR/>The bishops assembled at Lambeth in 1998, said "Don't consecrate Gene Robinson bishop of New Hampshire in 2003"? How remarkably prescient! (Must have missed that: all I caught was their <B>opaque</B> "cannot advise"!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151507392205967952006-06-28T11:09:00.000-04:002006-06-28T11:09:00.000-04:00I too can live with the "second" track option. I...I too can live with the "second" track option. In fact, I believe that it is the track we've been on all along. I don't see it as a second class status, but as a status consistent with sound Anglican ecclesiology.<BR/><BR/>The problem with Rowan Williams' proposal is that the "first track" is offered at all. We Anglicans should have stuck with our rejection of the Virginia Report, which was a lousy report and shoddy theology. A combination of Anglo-Catholic fantasy and homophobia is threatening our status as a Reformed and Catholic Church.<BR/><BR/> But if people would like to band together voluntarily to swear allegiance to Lambeth I.10, I say, let them. They won't be recognizably Anglican, but I don't have a lot of investment in that particular label anyway. Never did (it's a holdover from colonial days) and now I have even less. The conflict is between neo-colonial Anglicans (track one) and post-colonial Anglicans (track two). U.S. imperialism will be more effectively countered if track one and track two can stay together and fight the neo-liberal agenda. Unfortunatley, I think the money behind track one is supporting this agenda.<BR/><BR/>If the Anglican Communion serves any purpose at all, it is too increase the autonomy of its members. Properly understood, intercommunion is not a limit to autonomy, but its true foundation. Any form of communion built on patriarchical relationship makes a mockery of the Gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151506035191488532006-06-28T10:47:00.000-04:002006-06-28T10:47:00.000-04:00kjinco, I thought you were absolutely eligible for...kjinco, I thought you were absolutely eligible for ordination as a priest - B033 only addresses elevation to bishop, not ordination as priest. Is there some other policy in the ECUSA I'm not aware of that needs to be thrown out ASAP?<BR/><BR/>-Patrick B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151502520371527162006-06-28T09:48:00.000-04:002006-06-28T09:48:00.000-04:00I am a cradle Episcopalian. I am a mom. I am lesbi...I am a cradle Episcopalian. I am a mom. I am lesbian. I am also perplexed. <BR/><BR/>I have been told that in spite of being a lesbian I am a full member of the Episcopal church. However, as a so-called “full member” of the lesbian persuasion I am not allowed to become ordained clergy. I am not allowed the sacramental rite of marriage. What part of “full member” am I not understanding?<BR/><BR/>I am also perplexed at how we Episcopalians claim to stand for human rights, but are silent while many Primates in Africa condone female genital mutilation? Then there is the problem of them not recognizing women clergy. I don't see ABC fussing about that.<BR/><BR/>On all continents, all humans should have equal rights. Regardless of gender, regardless of their partner’s gender, regardless of their religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151487909656611902006-06-28T05:45:00.000-04:002006-06-28T05:45:00.000-04:00Okay, in this morning's Guardian, I've seen the mo...Okay, in this morning's Guardian, I've seen the most hopeful, and strongest, thing I've heard yet on the precipitating issue by ++Rowan:<BR/><BR/>'(Williams)warned those in the church who have been outspoken in their condemnation of gays: "It is doubtless true that a lot of extra heat is generated in the conflict by ingrained and ignorant prejudice in some quarters and that for many others ... the issue seems to be a clear one about human rights and dignity.'<BR/><BR/>This is the first time since his consecration that I remember him ever saying in a public forum that those who consent to same-sex blessings or the election of bishops of same-sex orientation might have some place at the table.<BR/><BR/>Too little, too late, but still something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151473215045331652006-06-28T01:40:00.000-04:002006-06-28T01:40:00.000-04:00(Yet a third attempt to get this right. . .my apol...(Yet a third attempt to get this right. . .my apologies)<BR/><BR/>Mark,<BR/><BR/>Precisely. Even before I read your post today, the Declaration of Independence lept to mind. Of all the "policies" I regret my country has produced, the Declaration is not one of them.<BR/><BR/>I was taken aback by the ABC's seemingly dismissive attitude towards the "human rights" question. My take is <A HREF="http://caughtbythelight.blogspot.com/2006/06/cantuars-red-herrings.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>God's peace, and thank you again for your clarity.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151473046677428072006-06-28T01:37:00.000-04:002006-06-28T01:37:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151472904129702152006-06-28T01:35:00.000-04:002006-06-28T01:35:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comments Mark, but let me urge you...Thanks for your comments Mark, but let me urge you to read Rowan's comments again. I see none of the harsh judgemental sentiment you describe. I do see an invitation to conversation; a respectful description of the main threads of thought presently in conflict; and an apt description of the potential genius of Anglicanism.<BR/><BR/>He also made a crucial point which bears emphasizing: "It isn't a question of throwing people into outer darkness, but of recognising that actions have consequences." It seems to me that we Americans have long made a way of life out of ignoring the consequences of our actions: From what we eat, to what we wear, to what we drive, to where our shit goes when we flush the toilet. Our system postively encourages people to ignore the consequences of their actions, and we are literally wrecking the planet because of it.<BR/><BR/>This could be another historic moment for TEC to take the lead: To show the rest of America how to live as a responsible member of a world-wide community whose members truly are equals, and who truly care for one another. Let us embrace that change and dive in!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151472799543410052006-06-28T01:33:00.000-04:002006-06-28T01:33:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151464849442006372006-06-27T23:20:00.000-04:002006-06-27T23:20:00.000-04:00So if the ECUSA and Anglican Church of Canada ends...So if the ECUSA and Anglican Church of Canada ends up on the 2nd tier does this mean we get a break (or serious reduction) on all the money we front? <BR/><BR/>Or is this round two of "taxation without representation" where we pay just as much as before but get a limited voice.<BR/><BR/>I would love to see the ABC address how the 2 tier system works out financially but I won't hold my breath.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151460919800552792006-06-27T22:15:00.000-04:002006-06-27T22:15:00.000-04:00Sorry to be a bit cynical but watch the money. I e...Sorry to be a bit cynical but watch the money. I expect the dues for "associate" membership might be a bit lower than full covenant status.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151459166017103342006-06-27T21:46:00.000-04:002006-06-27T21:46:00.000-04:00I agree with Tobias Haller: it's bound to be bett...I agree with Tobias Haller: it's bound to be better Downstairs. We'll be able to get back to something productive at last; we won't have to go to these silly meetings; the company will be more fun; and best of all, the Nigerians will still have to deal with us - and will eventually change their minds on this issue, as everybody knows they will. Only they'll do it in only 5 years, rather than taking 30.<BR/><BR/>Let's do it. It'll be an adventure - a new thing for TEC, too. Let's let somebody else drive for awhile, and we'll navigate.blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151453847538121302006-06-27T20:17:00.000-04:002006-06-27T20:17:00.000-04:00It is a travesty that the scripture is used only w...It is a travesty that the scripture is used only when it serves and supports your own agenda...either you believe it or you don't, and if you don't, then at least don't defile it by quoting it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151451831416042562006-06-27T19:43:00.000-04:002006-06-27T19:43:00.000-04:00Father Mark,You are right on point. Further, I don...Father Mark,<BR/>You are right on point. <BR/>Further, I don't think B-033 did anything but cause hurt, anger and confusion on both sides. Now the ABC is proposing a two track communion which removes The Episcopal Church out of the decision making process and making it a minor fellow in the communion or an "Associated Church" and others who tow the conservative line would be "Consituent Churches" which have decision making in the communion as part of their membership.<BR/>I guess that would mean Bishop Duncan's dream to be leader of some newly formed Anglican Church in America could come true. He could be top dog in the new Constituent Anglican Church in America; maybe make his title Archbishop. The Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church would be second fiddle; just a Presiding Bishop of an Associated Branch,not a full fledged member of the Top Dog Branch.<BR/>Of course TEC dues will be expected in a timely manner. <BR/>I'm not sure this idea is going to fly.<BR/>The same oil and water that didn't mix 100 years ago still doesn't mix.Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962773364437172375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151445432458358262006-06-27T17:57:00.000-04:002006-06-27T17:57:00.000-04:00I could live with the "second track" solution. May...I could live with the "second track" solution. Maybe even prefer it! I mean, what does it really mean in practice: not going to Lambeth, maybe not being part of ACC (which takes a vote of 2/3ds of the primates -- including us and Canada and SA and Mexico etc.!). So that's what happens; and as my CPE supervisor would say, "And.....?" <BR/><BR/>In one sense, Lambeth and the ACC and $2 gets you on the subway. We're talking about two weeks of meetings every 3 or 10 years! In the interim is all the good stuff of MISSION, which is what the church is FOR! <BR/><BR/>And that's my point, as I made it at the Convention when I spoke in favor of the Covenant: the problem with the contemporary church is we're thinking about <I>ministers</I> instead of <I>ministry</I>: all this focus on personal qualities and manner of life instead of whehter they do what Jesus said to do. Jesus seems to have been completely indifferent to the manner of life of those he called to serve, and those who served him -- <I>as long as they served!</I> (Remember the woman who washed his feet with her tears, and Simon's pious reaction!) You know, Jesus never mentions personal holiness at all; it's part of the purity code he rejected. He talked about prophetic righteousness and not judging others. Hmmm... could sure use more of that in the Anglican Communion!<BR/><BR/>Let's embrace a communion based on mission instead of the lifestyle of the missionaries!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151444670297841742006-06-27T17:44:00.000-04:002006-06-27T17:44:00.000-04:00I'm now working in a CofE ordination college. For...I'm now working in a CofE ordination college. For the last two days, there's been a conference on interfaith engagement going on here. Most of the participants are parish priests. <BR/><BR/>So, between priests from all over England, and ordinands and staff from the college, the impression I'm getting is disgust and disappointment.<BR/><BR/>Not disgust and disappointment over anything ECUSA has/not done, but over ++Rowan's silence and lack of leadership, and allowing the conservative factions to interfere in other provinces, and for his failure to even attempt to hold the centrist people of the Anglican Communion in conversation.<BR/><BR/>And over here, we can't even blame an election for having given us the leadership we deserve. We got the 'tradition' of the CofE appointments process, and it has not served us well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151439324265460032006-06-27T16:15:00.000-04:002006-06-27T16:15:00.000-04:00Jimb,I don't have a current email for you. I'd lik...Jimb,<BR/><BR/>I don't have a current email for you. I'd like to catch up a bit from the "old days." Please check out my blog at www.deaconslant.blogspot.com<BR/><BR/>YBIC,<BR/>Phil Snyderplsdeaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039800243898137584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151439219923775262006-06-27T16:13:00.000-04:002006-06-27T16:13:00.000-04:00Jimb,Good to hear from you again! It's been a whi...Jimb,<BR/><BR/>Good to hear from you again! It's been a while.<BR/><BR/>For Bill Carroll et al, let's take an analogous situation from US History. During the Civil War, the State of Virginia left the Union. But several counties decided to remain with the United States and formed the state of West Virginia. Who were the "schismatics?" Was it the "West Virginians" or the "Virginians?"<BR/><BR/>We are under no obligation to do what anyone tells us to do. That is part of being part of fallen humanity. We can declare "you're not the boss of me!" But that declaration has consequences. If we assert our independence, then why are we surprised if the rest of the Anglican Communion gives it to us? The question now comes down to what to do with those parishes and dioceses that want to remain part of the Anglican Communion. Do we fight them and drain both coffers while enriching lawyers or do we let them go with our blessing and recognize that they, too, are trying to follow and proclaim Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>YBIC,<BR/>Phil Snyderplsdeaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039800243898137584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151436921829573252006-06-27T15:35:00.000-04:002006-06-27T15:35:00.000-04:00"Anonymous said... "I say just let them go!"...So ..."Anonymous said... <BR/>"I say just let them go!"<BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>So when are they going to do it? We all know that Can(n)on Anderson likes "a good fight," but surely even that is not reason to continue making these vain threats to flounce out in a huff."<BR/><BR/>The PB Elect described us as "cojoined twins." If the seperation is done badly, we will both die. Schism is no small thing to contemplate.<BR/><BR/>We say, no we proclaim(!) that the ordination of +NH was prophetic action. We proclaim that we were responding to the voice of the Spirit.<BR/><BR/>OK, then let's act like it! There is real pain in being prophetic. Nathan had to confront David in his own house. Elijah and Elisha feared for their lives more than once. They went on. Dismissing the people we are called to love is simply wrong. <BR/><BR/>Clearly we cannot force the conservatives to stay, or to invite us to their party. What we can do is make ourselves available to them, every day, in every way possible.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151435787168792062006-06-27T15:16:00.000-04:002006-06-27T15:16:00.000-04:00"I say just let them go!"We feel the same way abou..."I say just let them go!"<BR/><BR/>We feel the same way about the fundamentalist busybodies who erroneously style themselves "orthodox Anglicans."<BR/><BR/>Let them go. Let them rent a storefront somewhere and buy some 1928 prayerbooks on Ebay and sign up with some paragon of virtue like Kunonga or Malanga and do their thing.<BR/><BR/>Even Akinola says that they need to stop dickering over property and "choose this day."<BR/><BR/>So when are they going to do it? We all know that Can(n)on Anderson likes "a good fight," but surely even that is not reason to continue making these vain threats to flounce out in a huff.<BR/><BR/>There's the door. Go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151435267608263652006-06-27T15:07:00.000-04:002006-06-27T15:07:00.000-04:00Phil,Sometimes adult brothers and sisters disagree...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Sometimes adult brothers and sisters disagree. Just because my sister begs me to do something that violates my conscience doesn't mean that I am obligated to do it. Just because she tells me that something is wrong doesn't mean she is right. The objections of the primates were duly noted and then we did what we felt God was calling us to do. <BR/><BR/>Only if you could prove that we were under an obligation to do what they told us would your argument make any sense. And we weren't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151434608050955892006-06-27T14:56:00.000-04:002006-06-27T14:56:00.000-04:00I stand amazed. We can all "politic" and debate f...I stand amazed. We can all "politic" and debate for the next ten years but the fact remains...ECUSA has separated itself from the rest of the Anglican world and I say just let them go! Enough is enough! They cry for us to be "tolerant" and "inclusive." What they fail to believe is that, just as vehemently as they hold to their beliefs, so do I and thousands of other "orthodox" Anglicans hold to the authority of scripture...and those two are simply incongruent. <BR/><BR/>We all sin and fall short...but you can't change the standard by which you live, which for Christians should be the Bible, just to match your current lifestyle. While I expect my church to minister to me even though I am a sinner, I certainly do not expect my church to bless my sin and tell me it's okay. What is the point?<BR/><BR/>There is no mending this breach when the views and values are so vastly different. Let's accept it and move on, wishing each other well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151433327677898442006-06-27T14:35:00.000-04:002006-06-27T14:35:00.000-04:00Someone from the UK who was at General Convention ...Someone from the UK who was at General Convention expressed to me privately (hence his anonymity -- apologies to those who object to that) his outrage at the Church of England.<BR/><BR/>He said that the "H word" is not "homosexuality" but "hypocrisy" and that if the gay priests AND BISHOPS in the C of E would refuse to remain in the closet, the entire farce would come crashing down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1151432763308132412006-06-27T14:26:00.000-04:002006-06-27T14:26:00.000-04:00The Global South Primates have said nothing any mo...<I>The Global South Primates have said nothing any more "anti-gay" than exactly what the ABC said in his statement today.</I><BR/><BR/>Rowan Williams said that we are lower than animals and represent "the spirit of Satan"?<BR/><BR/>I must have missed that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com