tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post116506455938658272..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Bishop Schofield's Storm (revised.)Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165283201157081322006-12-04T20:46:00.000-05:002006-12-04T20:46:00.000-05:00"Once again I am hearing that the Old Testament Go..."Once again I am hearing that the Old Testament God - and Jesus - got it wrong, and we ever so much smarter and sophisticated people of the 21st Century understand the truth better than they did." Pilgrim<BR/><BR/>A long time ago, around 1993, when I was mentor for an EFM (Education for Ministry) seminar, I had a student who self-identified as a "fundamentalist, Biblical-literalist Episcopalian". He had been in my seminar for almost two years when, having arrived early one day, we had another of our always generously civil discussions about scripture. He said he could believe in Jesus because he knew the scriptures to be plainly and literally true just as written. And yet, he said, I too clearly had a deep faith in Jesus. He said he couldn't see how that could be. And I said, "And yet, it is true." And he said, "I know; it's clear."<BR/><BR/>Pilgrim's statement above reminded me of my old friend. He is hearing us say, clearly, that God or the Holy Spirit or Jesus got it wrong and we are now getting it right. And yet, none of us are saying or even thinking that. We're talking past one another, without the advantage I and that other man had of a long-term relationship of spiritual formation and learning.<BR/><BR/>I framed my challenge the way I did, not to be funny or sarcastic, but for a reason. I was trying to push the Bp. Schofield's of the church to dig inside and be honest about their presuppositions about women that make them come up with <BR/>reasons, with the appearance of unassailability, to exclude women from holy orders. (At least there was honesty in the men who used to tell me in the early 1980's that women can't be priests because we bleed and there's no way you can tell when we are unclean, and so you can never tell when the altar and the sacrament have been polluted. Gross, but honest.)<BR/><BR/>The reason I did this, is because, in venues other than this blog thread, we women clergy are being labeled as unfaithful, pagans, and non-Christians for taking holy orders - I have been told so to my face, not to mention on Virturonline. We are not. We are women of deep faith, as we represent Christ at the Altar. We are Christians, as priests of Christ at the Altar. We worship the Triune God, as faithful baptized persons. I personally have a special devotion to the Virgin (yes, Virgin!) Mary. Bishop Schofield's point of view, evidently, is that this cannot be so, so long as I remain a priest. <BR/><BR/>And yet, it is so.<BR/>Faithfully,<BR/>Lois KeenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165276662809381772006-12-04T18:57:00.000-05:002006-12-04T18:57:00.000-05:00But He still did not choose them to be Apostles?In...But He still did not choose them to be Apostles?<BR/><BR/>In the NT 'apostles' are witnesses to the resurrection of Christ. Didn't the Risen Christ first appear to women before he appeared to men? Didn't he tell the women at the empty tomb to tell the (male) disciples that he is RISEN?<BR/><BR/>Christian tradition (prior to and up to the Reformation) in as far away places as Gaul/France recognized Mary Magdalene as an 'apostle'; and there were even stained glass windows showing her wearhing a priestly stole (cf. Elisabeth Wendell-Moltmann).<BR/><BR/>John HenryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165263776323970172006-12-04T15:22:00.000-05:002006-12-04T15:22:00.000-05:00IIRC, it's the bar mitzvah that establishes member...IIRC, it's the <I>bar mitzvah</I> that establishes membership in a Jewish congregation for young males. Can anyone tell me whether the Jews, at the time of Jesus, held <I>bat mitzvahs</I> for their daughters? I don't believe there was such a ceremony. To the Jews back then, it would have been no less ridiculous to have a ceremony for their cattle or sheep: women were property, not people of standing.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, arguing that women should not be in the clergy because they weren't selected as Jesus' disciples ascribes a special importance to the Jewish culture. Were we to give our contemporary culture this much respect, we would openly embrace gays and lesbians in TEC, as our culture is now opening to them as it did to blacks some forty years ago. Or is it only appropriate to embrace a 3000 yo culture, minus all the iPods and bloggers?Pfalz prophethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10465623376468902861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165256833029111102006-12-04T13:27:00.000-05:002006-12-04T13:27:00.000-05:00Progress, ain't it great?!Not.Progress, ain't it great?!<BR/><BR/>Not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165252651270710712006-12-04T12:17:00.000-05:002006-12-04T12:17:00.000-05:00Bill Caroll and the Pilgrim seem to have it togeth...Bill Caroll and the Pilgrim seem to have it together. Rev. Lois, unbenownst to you, I assume, you have made Bishops Schofield's case for him. You however left off two legs of the three legged stool. "Outside of Scripture",there is no reason in the world why women should not be ordained. In fact, "outside of Scripture" there is no reason why anyone can't do whatever their little heart desires. If you add "Tradition and Reason" and eliminate those as well, which the church in many respects already has, the sky is the limit. Bishop's Schofields statement tells of history, and the road that the Episocpal Church has chosen to go down. I don't see the Bishop's comments as "being really upset" so much as his just stating what has and is taking place. To deny the divinity of Jesus is simply following the one that Jesus warned about on many occasions. Very Very sad!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165248200555495802006-12-04T11:03:00.000-05:002006-12-04T11:03:00.000-05:00Fr. Bill wrote, "My friend and former colleague, D...Fr. Bill wrote, <I>"My friend and former colleague, Don Armentrout, used to say that if you don't want to ordain at least some of them, you should stop baptizing them."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think some commenters here have paid enough attention to this <I>key</I> point. There are <B>four orders</B> of ministry in TEC, not three - Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons, and all of the Baptised (yeah, the great, unwashed mass of us Episcopal laypeople ;)<BR/><BR/>It makes no theological sense to baptise women (or gays/lesbians, or whomever...) if they're not fit for the other, three orders.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165245163191450682006-12-04T10:12:00.000-05:002006-12-04T10:12:00.000-05:00++Kate rocks.Episcopal News Service December 4, 20...++Kate rocks.<BR/><BR/>Episcopal News Service<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>December 4, 2006<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Presiding Bishop comments on San Joaquin actions<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>[ENS] Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori has offered the following response to actions of Bishop John-David Schofield and the Convention of the Fresno-based Diocese of San Joaquin. An ENS story reporting on the convention meeting, held December 1-2 with delegates participating from the diocese's 48 congregations, will be posted later today. <BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>Response to San Joaquin's Convention<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>I lament the actions of the Bishop and Convention of the Diocese of San Joaquin to repudiate their membership in the Episcopal Church. While it is clear that this process is not yet complete, the fact that the Bishop and Convention have voted to remove the accession clause required by the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church would seem to imply that there is no intent to terminate this process before it reaches its full conclusion. Our task as the Episcopal Church is God's mission of reconciling the world, and actions such as this distract and detract from that mission.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>I deeply lament the pain, confusion, and suffering visited on loyal members of the Episcopal Church within the Diocese of San Joaquin, and want them to know of my prayers and the prayers of many, many others. <BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>I continue to consult with others involved in responding to this extracanonical action.<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>The Most Reverend Katharine Jefferts Schori<BR/><BR/>Presiding Bishop and Primate<BR/><BR/>The Episcopal ChurchAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165234042482726392006-12-04T07:07:00.000-05:002006-12-04T07:07:00.000-05:00Thanks to all for their responses. Anonymous 1 and...Thanks to all for their responses. Anonymous 1 and Pilgrim gave it a brave try, but I still have not heard what they personally think is so disordered about the female of our species that God (see Pilgrim) has made Jesus' sex the determining factor in who can represent him at the altar. I give you my blessing, Pilgrim, as I gave it to Anonymous 1, for trying and failing. I release you all from answering my challenge and I continue to commit this (now elderly) female body to the work of the priesthood in the name of Jesus the Christ. <BR/>Lois KeenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165184729238236922006-12-03T17:25:00.000-05:002006-12-03T17:25:00.000-05:00Bill Carroll's quote ("My friend and former collea...Bill Carroll's quote ("My friend and former colleague, Don Armentrout, used to say that if you don't want to ordain at least some of them, you should stop baptizing them. Same thing goes for clergy with same sex partners, as far as I can tell.") echoes the position of Karl Rahner SJ in the late 1950s/early 1960s when he and other Catholic theologians advocated Women's Ordination.<BR/><BR/>John HenryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165183103903850272006-12-03T16:58:00.000-05:002006-12-03T16:58:00.000-05:00Would one of you more learned individuals tell me ...Would one of you more learned individuals tell me what "core Christain doctrine" +Schofield is saying TEC has violated and what new religion is it that GC has created? I though that God, incarnate in Jesus, had an unconditional love for us all and that the two great commandments of the NT were what really mattered, not the judicial laws of the Pharisees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165173881470615452006-12-03T14:24:00.000-05:002006-12-03T14:24:00.000-05:00There's a story about a bishop who opposed women's...There's a story about a bishop who opposed women's ordination addressing a group of adults at Virginia Seminary. Since it may be apocryphal and it refers to a living bishop I'll remove the name.<BR/><BR/>The bishop in question gave a version of the "the presider represents Jesus and Jesus was a man argument," and said something like "when the priest stands up there, we have to see Jesus."<BR/><BR/>Without missing a beat, a stately steel magnolia raised her hand and addressed the bishop by his first name: "But N., when I look at you, I don't see Jesus."<BR/><BR/>Wherever this comes from, it does not come from anything Jesus ever said or taught.<BR/><BR/>My friend and former colleague, Don Armentrout, used to say that if you don't want to ordain at least some of them, you should stop baptizing them. Same thing goes for clergy with same sex partners, as far as I can tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165125087249272452006-12-03T00:51:00.000-05:002006-12-03T00:51:00.000-05:00Is not this Advent dark enough without us creating...<A HREF="http://caughtbythelight.blogspot.com/2006/12/wages-of-fear.html" REL="nofollow">Is not this Advent dark enough without us creating our own darkness? Prayers for those struggling with the decisions of San Joaquin. . .</A>Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165124944693636792006-12-03T00:49:00.000-05:002006-12-03T00:49:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165120081210857022006-12-02T23:28:00.000-05:002006-12-02T23:28:00.000-05:00Pilgrim, weren't all of Our Lord's disciples and a...Pilgrim, weren't all of Our Lord's disciples and apostles Jews?<BR/><BR/>Does that mean that my parish needs to hire a rabbi?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165115484731109222006-12-02T22:11:00.000-05:002006-12-02T22:11:00.000-05:00Tobias, thanks for clarifying.anonymous, just beca...Tobias, thanks for clarifying.<BR/><BR/>anonymous, just because a whole lot of people think something is a good idea doesn't mean it is. After all, the majority position used to be that slavery was good...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165110766996245172006-12-02T20:52:00.000-05:002006-12-02T20:52:00.000-05:00Given its Scottish roots, the first Bishop-elect o...Given its Scottish roots, the first Bishop-elect of PECUSA having been consecrated by Scottish Bishops, the Episcopal Church adopted the major part of the 1637 Laudian Prayer Book imposed by the martyred Cantuar on the Scottish Church. Its Eucharistic Rite more closely resembles that of the 1549 BCP than the 1662 version.<BR/><BR/>Episcopalians will never forswear their Scottish heritage and, if forced by the Primates (who have no jurisdiction anyway outside their own provinces!) to accept the 1662 BCP, will tell those egomaniacs of the ilk of ++Peter Jasper Abuja to get lost!<BR/><BR/>John HenryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165109889061675262006-12-02T20:38:00.000-05:002006-12-02T20:38:00.000-05:00"We can expect to see more of what Bishop Schofiel..."We can expect to see more of what Bishop Schofield recites in his address and a stronger affirmation of the position that THE prayer book for Anglicans is the 1662 English book."<BR/>Most anglicans would agree with the Bishop. 1662 remains the standard for the CofE and the anglican Church of Australia and for most of the anglican Communion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165086661504238322006-12-02T14:11:00.000-05:002006-12-02T14:11:00.000-05:00The three goals; unity, appoint a leader, and subm...The three goals; unity, appoint a leader, and submission to the Primates' leadership, are the same goals that Bp. Schofield outlined at his <A HREF="http://frjakestopstheworld.blogspot.com/2006/11/bp-schofields-deanery-presentations.html" REL="nofollow">Deanery talks</A>.<BR/><BR/>He claims to have received them from Bp. Duncan by email shortly after their meeting with the 6 Primates in Virginia.Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13579571802576738609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165086177777586272006-12-02T14:02:00.000-05:002006-12-02T14:02:00.000-05:00Simple answer, Lois. Men decided what would and w...Simple answer, Lois. Men decided what would and would not be in the Bible. They had the same upbringing as the men Jesus tried to teach. His disciples included women but men couldn't deal with that so they wrote women out. Some are still doing it. And sadly, some women believe them. Sad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165081656886519532006-12-02T12:47:00.000-05:002006-12-02T12:47:00.000-05:00Rev. Lois asks why? An excellent question. I am li...Rev. Lois asks why? An excellent question. I am listening intently. I only hear the sound of silence.<BR/><BR/>-frankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165078630161943592006-12-02T11:57:00.000-05:002006-12-02T11:57:00.000-05:00And all in the name of Jesus, the Prince of Peace....And all in the name of Jesus, the Prince of Peace. (re Charlotte's post of 11:21 a.m.)<BR/>Lois KeenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165076514884180692006-12-02T11:21:00.000-05:002006-12-02T11:21:00.000-05:00Robert Dodd: I *think* the Global South "requireme...Robert Dodd: I *think* the Global South "requirements" mentioned in Bishop Schofield's address have to do with the February 2007 Primates' meeting. <BR/><BR/>The Network wants the Primates' Meeting to do two things at that meeting. First, to approve a non-geographical "orthodox" province in North America, separate from the Episcopal Church. Second, as the Network phrases it, to "severely discipline" the Episcopal Church.<BR/><BR/>Thus, the current Network plan is for the Primates to present ++Rowan in February with a fait accompli. They will have suspended or expelled the Episcopal Church from the Anglican Communion, and recognized a separate, non-geographical, "orthodox" North American province as the legitimate expression of Anglicanism. ++Rowan will have no choice but to go along. The Communion can't afford to lose Nigeria, and Nigeria will start its own Communion if the Episcopal Church is not expelled.<BR/><BR/>Any precipitate action on the part of any members of the Network, but particularly by any of the ALPO dioceses, could damage their chances of achieving this result, especially if the Episcopal Church is able to charge them with abandonment of communion before the Primates expel the Episcopal Church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165075815116880452006-12-02T11:10:00.000-05:002006-12-02T11:10:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous, I did indeed learn that one long b...Dear Anonymous, I did indeed learn that one long before seminary. I also learned all the arguments against - Jesus was circumcised, Jesus was a Jew, Jesus was homeless, therefore all priests must be...I want to know WHY it is that Jesus's sex is the important determinant about him. What is it about being female that makes it impossible for us to represent Jesus. Go deeper. And thanks for trying. Blessings.<BR/>Lois KeenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165075220064313752006-12-02T11:00:00.000-05:002006-12-02T11:00:00.000-05:00rev lois,I would have thought that you picked that...rev lois,<BR/><BR/>I would have thought that you picked that stuff up in seminary. about the priest acting as jesus and jesus was a man and so the priest has to be a man. sorry you're sick of it,but your theological position is a minority one. You can't force people to be ok with something that they believe is not. (as much as TEC has tried)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1165074289783097122006-12-02T10:44:00.000-05:002006-12-02T10:44:00.000-05:00With regard to Bp. Schofield's continued pain over...With regard to Bp. Schofield's continued pain over the ordination of women, will someone seriously detail for me what it is about us women that makes us unfit for holy orders other than the convent, apart from quoting scripture. That is, what is it inately about being a female human being that makes scripture exclude us, without circularly quoting scripture, if your warrant is scripture, and, in addition, what personally is it about us that makes us so abhorent in ordained orders? If you are tempted to say "scripture says so here and here and here", please say why you think it says so. And please, in responding, refrain from using condescending language. Maybe it would be best if Mark answered - I trust him to be fair and to understand what it is for which I am asking. And I am asking because quite frankly, not to take one thing away from how sick to death my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters are to be continually blamed for the state of the church, the communion and the world, I am sick to death of having my orders challenged just because I am a woman.<BR/>The Reverend Lois Blanche Thien Keen<BR/>PriestAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com