tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post1721987803961259041..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Bishop Iker's reasons for running away, perhaps mad.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41981469452543254962008-11-07T09:35:00.000-05:002008-11-07T09:35:00.000-05:00My point is that today we have no adequate criteri...My point is that today we have no adequate criteria for assessing victory or defeat. <BR/><BR/>Will the new American province end up a slightly glorified version of the REC or the heir to the American Anglican heritage? No Episcopal Evangelical in the 1840s anticipated the struggle that was coming or that it might ultimately be "lost." The same holds true today. We simply do not know. <BR/><BR/>The one difference between then and now is the global dimension. This is not solely an American struggle. Miranda Hassett - much to her credit - has made that all too clear.Jeremy Bonnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16915767119353670952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24921236431619844092008-11-06T19:09:00.000-05:002008-11-06T19:09:00.000-05:00A the tail end of Jeremy's post he describes Linco...A the tail end of Jeremy's post he describes Lincoln saying that the North won, and that was the end of it.<BR/>So how do you tell who "wins" in the case of the TEC and those leaving it?<BR/>Any ideas?<BR/><BR/>Obadiah SlopeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39930885425097186272008-11-06T05:14:00.000-05:002008-11-06T05:14:00.000-05:00Observer, why wouldn't +Iker have been invited to ...Observer, why wouldn't +Iker have been invited to Lambeth? He is the Bishop of the Diocese of Fort Worth, The Episcopal Church, The Episcopal Church in the U.S.A. <BR/><BR/>If you are going to start a food fight, find some fresh tomatoes. It's stall news that +Robinson of New Hampshire didn't receive an invitation - and that none of the CANA or other rogue bishops received them, either. Don't play numbers games you can't win.Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09748809418423591030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-71390054726559035162008-11-05T20:52:00.000-05:002008-11-05T20:52:00.000-05:00In her sermon at Calvary - Pittsburgh, KJS stated ...In her sermon at Calvary - Pittsburgh, KJS stated that those who stayed and those who left the Episcopal church are "saints." Does this signal a change? For surely one shouldn't sue a saint of the church. Right?<BR/><BR/>In the remaining Episcopal diocese of San Joaquin, 100% of revenues are going to be used for lawsuits. This is simply accounting trickery, 815 pays for the cost of the diocese and the diocese pays for 815's lawyers. But can an organization rightly be called a religious organization if it uses 100% of it's income on lawsuits?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16452163673415003452008-11-05T10:15:00.000-05:002008-11-05T10:15:00.000-05:00Now +Iker was invited to Lambeth (not all TEC bish...Now +Iker was invited to Lambeth (not all TEC bishops were invited by the ABC, as you know)....<BR/><BR/>- yet the TEC hope is that by not being part of TEC, +Iker will be unacceptable to the rest of the AC.... not likely, not at all likely given it is with TEC's leadership and theological direction and not +Iker that most of the Communion has issuesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61747842145004919972008-11-05T09:39:00.000-05:002008-11-05T09:39:00.000-05:00David,As a scholar (of sorts) myself, you're makin...David,<BR/><BR/>As a scholar (of sorts) myself, you're making far too generous an assumption about "scholarly work." The fact that something sounds reasonable and/or is well documented in no way assures that research will "fall where it may, in support of or not in support of the thesis." We all - liberal and conservative - bring our biases to the writing process, whether consciously or unconsciously. <BR/><BR/>Most historians end up being somewhat selective in what sources they use and how they use them. That's partly a function of human limitations (and time). I've sometimes tried to imagine how a progressive might have written the history of the Diocese of Pittsburgh that I've just completed (and you can read a summary that includes a description of how progressives might view the past forty years at my blog "Catholic and Reformed," the October 21st entry)<BR/><BR/>Would such an account be more more "true" than the one I have written? Surely it depends on where you sit? Didn't Lincoln once remark, in response to the question whether the South had a right to secede, what right and wrong had to do with it? The North won and the South lost and that was an end of it. And that, ultimately, may be the deciding factor in how the actions of San Joaquin, Pittsburgh and Fort Worth come to be viewed in the years ahead.Jeremy Bonnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16915767119353670952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85124194720144789592008-11-05T06:57:00.000-05:002008-11-05T06:57:00.000-05:00David, that's how I read it, frankly. So far no cl...David, that's how I read it, frankly. So far no clarification from Allen, or even a recognition that most Pride Parades haven't let NAMBLA march for years.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54775218979888026292008-11-05T06:09:00.000-05:002008-11-05T06:09:00.000-05:00Note to Allen;Scholarly work is written in a strai...Note to Allen;<BR/><BR/>Scholarly work is written in a straightforward, unbiased tone. It normally begins with a thesis, and then allows the research to fall where it may, in support of or not in support of the thesis.<BR/><BR/>The snarky tone of this website should have alerted you to the possible bias of its author. This sort of writing begs the question, is this based on research or is it the prejudice of the author making the facts fit their presupposition.<BR/><BR/>For me, this is a highly suspect "source" to which you have directed us. It reads as one of David Virtue's diatribes.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70525991250728164592008-11-05T00:55:00.000-05:002008-11-05T00:55:00.000-05:00What I loved was the implication that Dah-veed is ...What I loved was the implication that Dah-veed is getting some sort of special treatment because he's not white and in the US.<BR/><BR/>It's enough to make God an ahumanist.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-26657816785285225782008-11-04T21:00:00.000-05:002008-11-04T21:00:00.000-05:00So Billy, by extension, does that direct those sam...So Billy, by extension, does that direct those same slurs to those of us here at Father Mark's blog who are Anglican Christians and also sexual minorities?<BR/><BR/>Guilt by association?Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39730518770454628932008-11-04T19:35:00.000-05:002008-11-04T19:35:00.000-05:00Another small matter brought up by the Presiding B...Another small matter brought up by the Presiding Bishop to the remnant in Pittsburgh. She noted how Islam is the direct recipient of the Covenant made with the children of Ishmael (the Arabs). Point of clarification: the promises were made to the Arabs and pre-dated the revelations to Muhammad by centuries. To compare the two is incorrect. It is also quite a leap to go from God's promise of making great nations of Ishmael's seed to claim that God endorses the Arab nations' superstitions. Abraham's seed was told that it would be blessed to be a blessing. Different Covenant, different promise. While the spitballs fly, let's refute (in a scholarly fashion) any evidence not to our liking as a world-view. I do not have a PhD in Oceanography. Neither do I have a Donated Dignity (D.D.) degree. But, I don't fall for the "let's all just get along" unifying efforts that try to synthesize a fake version of the God and Father of Jesus and Allah for the sake of harmony. It's disturbing that any Christian scholar would be so weak as to not speak the truth to competing faith claims and not promote the superiority of the incarnation/revelation of Jesus Christ. Probably why the remnant brought the issue up to start with.<BR/><BR/>http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/History.htm<BR/><BR/>Spitballs at the ready?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14157811582731916442008-11-04T18:56:00.000-05:002008-11-04T18:56:00.000-05:00Ah, David, don't forget one of Allen's best slurs ...Ah, David, don't forget one of Allen's best slurs (made in a thread downstream) when he called participants in the SF Gay Pride Parade "Man-Boy Love perverts...self-disclosing pedophiles...Molech's abomination."The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43671071393380908902008-11-04T14:56:00.000-05:002008-11-04T14:56:00.000-05:00Allen, in my experience here for a number of month...Allen, in my experience here for a number of months, you make judgements on TEC, the Presiding Bishop, the actions of the General Convention and the Executive Council of TEC. Most of the time they are snarky slurs.<BR/><BR/>I often believe that you get your information from the yellow journalism of David Virtue, because his speaking points are often your exact speaking points.<BR/><BR/>When challenged with more accurate information, which is often one Google search away, such as regarding the closing of the Native American churches on Pine Ridge, you never concede that you were perhaps mistaken or ill-informed.<BR/><BR/>When you make snarky claims about the TEC canons say this, and are challenged for the specific canon, you ignore your interlocutor and move on as if you never made the outlandish statement. Such as when BillyD inquired about the canon requiring the hiring of a priest unwanted by a parish. You ignored him for days. When you finally acknowledged his inquiry, you changed your original claim and dumped it in his lap that he needed to do his homework.<BR/><BR/>You called Mohammed a pedophile on the flimsiest of ancient information and thus dismiss an entire faith culture.<BR/><BR/>I am sorry, those are all ignorant and bigoted actions of a person of little education or who purposely slurs the truth.<BR/><BR/>BTW, it came out in the Diocesan Convention that TEC had restored most of the money and the issue regarding closing the Pine Ridge churches was indeed caused by internal friction in that diocese. But the truth would not serve your purposes here, so you let that slip away, as so much else.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16579985587965717832008-11-04T12:23:00.000-05:002008-11-04T12:23:00.000-05:00Mark, Thank you for your thoughtful rebuttal of Bi...Mark, <BR/>Thank you for your thoughtful rebuttal of Bishop Iker. There are many in the Diocese of Fort worth who do not want to have any part of this. I pray for many friends and all in this diocese. MarilynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22014130209023133792008-11-04T11:04:00.000-05:002008-11-04T11:04:00.000-05:00"..ignorant, bigoted, country bumpkin".Thank-you, ..."..ignorant, bigoted, country bumpkin".<BR/><BR/>Thank-you, Mark, for allowing dah-veed to continue to bust through your high standards which exclude name-calling.<BR/><BR/>I have stopped replying to his slurs and notions for this very reason. Bluster away, dah-veed. There's a special allowance being made for you, perhaps due to a language/culture difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88654426261985410572008-11-04T02:44:00.000-05:002008-11-04T02:44:00.000-05:00Allen,Please read the Nostra Aetate, and then come...Allen,<BR/><BR/>Please read the <I>Nostra Aetate,</I> and then come back and comment on whether Bishop Schori's comments are incompatible with orthodox Christianity. Note I did not say fundamentalist Protestant Christianity.Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09748809418423591030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21358171862053042932008-11-03T22:27:00.000-05:002008-11-03T22:27:00.000-05:00David, I do have a quibble with the PB's quote abo...David, I do have a quibble with the PB's quote about Muslims. I can't find any salvific promise to Hagar or Ishmael in the Biblical account - just a promise to make a nation out of Ishmael, and that Hagar would have more descendants than she could count. Other than that, there's just a prediction that Ishmael would be hard to get along with. Am I missing something?<BR/><BR/>Mind you, I'm not arguing for the damnation of the Muslims. I just don't understand the PB's reference.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63167118165027921752008-11-03T16:44:00.000-05:002008-11-03T16:44:00.000-05:00"Go and MAKE disciples of all nations...teaching t..."Go and MAKE disciples of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."<BR/><BR/>Christians are supposed to enable others to be fashioned into followers of Christ. Until then they are in a lesser light. We aren't to be satisfied with the lesser light.<BR/><BR/>Excise the Great Commission if you can't agree with the words "make", "teaching" and "observe all".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69741191520468425842008-11-03T16:00:00.000-05:002008-11-03T16:00:00.000-05:00As usual, there is always more to the story than t...As usual, there is always more to the story than the slant Allen, and now his cohort, Christopher, is prone to take. A tiny bit more perusal revealed that the Presiding Bishop's statement was more focused than presented in the other paper.<BR/><BR/>From today's <A HREF="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08308/924886-52.stm" REL="nofollow">Pittsburgh Post-Gazette</A>;<BR/><I>During her sermon and in a later time for questions, Bishop Jefferts Schori addressed the divisive issue of whether Jesus is the only way to God.<BR/><BR/><B>She said she believes Jesus "is the vehicle of salvation for all those living and dead and those to come after us."</B><BR/><BR/>But the Bible also recorded promises to Jews and others, she said.<BR/><BR/>"Those promises were not broken by Jesus' life, death and resurrection," she said. "Therefore, Jews have access to salvation without consciously saying 'Jesus is my Lord and savior.' I didn't do that; God did it. <B>I also see that God made promises to Hagar and Ishmael, who Muslims claim as their ancestor.</B> I don't think God broke those promises when Jesus came among us."</I><BR/><BR/>Were she my Presiding Bishop, this is not the embarrassment Allen thinks.<BR/><BR/>BTW Allen, Arab Christians, even Arab Anglicans, pray to Allah daily. Allah is the Arab word God. Unfortunately, I do not know enough about Islam to state that its image of God is similar or vastly different than that of Jews or Christians. However Allen, you constantly make comments of judgement here which, for me, identify you as an ignorant, bigoted, country bumpkin.<BR/><BR/>I researched your statement "a pedohile [sic] like Muhammad" because it was a new claim to me. One source identifies his youngest wife as 6 when betrothed and 9 when he consummated the marriage. This is a source written 300 years after his death. Other sources identify her as having been 16 at betrothal and 19 at consummation.<BR/><BR/>All of his other wives are identified as definitely being adult and on good terms with him. That hardly sounds similar to what we moderns know of pedophilia.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70388663806109476802008-11-03T13:43:00.000-05:002008-11-03T13:43:00.000-05:00Allen--Why do you think that she's going on the ba...Allen--<BR/><BR/>Why do you think that she's going on the basis of "be nice." There is a solid basis of theology, Biblically based, that sees the salvation that Christ effected as being "for the nations." And that sees belief manifested as much or more in actions than in words. And most everyone thinks that the God that Muslims pray to is the same God as Jews and Christians pray to--and to affirm this is not to affirm anything else about the relative merits of the three religions. As to Chris H.'s comment about why did Jesus bother, it seems to miss the point. The statement that holiness and experience of God may come to Jews and Muslims is precisely because of Jesus. The PB isn't saying that Jesus is superfluous; she's saying that he may be more powerful than we had imagined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50232388849407305942008-11-03T12:01:00.000-05:002008-11-03T12:01:00.000-05:00"I see evidence of holiness in people who are not ...<I>"I see evidence of holiness in people who are not Christians. I have to assume in some way God is present and important in those people who may not consciously know Jesus." Does that mean they're all saved? When I hear statements like that if makes me wonder why Jesus bothered when it wasn't necessary.</I><BR/><BR/>Have you ever read CS Lewis' Narnia books - especially the Last Battle?The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62292952066181776422008-11-03T11:55:00.000-05:002008-11-03T11:55:00.000-05:00Allen, I'm not even sure that the proposal to do a...Allen, I'm not even sure that the proposal to do away with the filioque comes from the usual suspects. This may originate among those who are pursuing Anglican-Orthodox relations. At any rate, it's not anything that needs to be addressed right now, and you may be right that it can wait until things are calmer.<BR/><BR/>While I believe that God's salvation isn't limited only to those who sign the Sinner's Prayer card at a Billy Graham revival, neither do I believe that God is in some sort of covenant with the Muslims. Do you have a link to the article? From your quote, it appears that this is a summation by the reporter, who may have got it wrong.<BR/><BR/>Careful with condemnations of "Allah," which is simply the Arabic word for God. It's the normal word used by Arabic-speaking Christians to refer to You Know Who.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63256662769565025332008-11-03T10:27:00.000-05:002008-11-03T10:27:00.000-05:00billyd,As you hopefully remember, I am no fan of t...billyd,<BR/><BR/>As you hopefully remember, I am no fan of those who are leading the fracture of this Church - on either extreme. But, I sense that there is valid criticism that has long gone unaddressed by the revisionists. When we are teetering on more mass exits, now is not the time to - after centuries - decide that we are going to be retrained on something like the Filioque Clause! Is THAT so important as to risk chasing away loyalists with what will appear to be an unnnecessary innovation?<BR/><BR/>Forget Iker. Look at the loyalist base that is getting fed up. Iker et al may share some of the base's criticisms and for that reason alone he should be listened to.<BR/><BR/>In no unexpected fashion, the Presiding Bishop has handed our Church another embarrassment. The Pittsburgh Tribune Review carried the account of her visit wth the remnant of TEC's diocese there. Concerns were expressed by attendees that the Presiding Bishop was too weak in her Christology. The article states"<BR/><BR/>"Jefferts Schori replied that like most Christians, she believes Jesus died for "the whole world." But his life and resurrection did not sever the promise God made to Jews and to Muslims, she added, and those groups still have access to salvation". <BR/><BR/>The Muslims???<BR/><BR/>Has anyone actually discerned that Allah has nothing in common with the Judeo-Christian God? Aside from the reactionary "be nice", has anyone ever looked at how Islam's god is not the least like the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Yet, in liberal fashion, a god is a god is a god as long as people are sincere.<BR/><BR/>To lump the god of a pedohile like Muhammad in with the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus Christ is shoddy theology at best.<BR/><BR/>Iker shares this concern of TEC's remaining loyalists in Pittsburgh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62245642926135420692008-11-03T09:59:00.000-05:002008-11-03T09:59:00.000-05:00"Our Diocese believes in salvation by grace throug..."Our Diocese believes in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. TEC believes there are many ways to salvation and that all religions lead to God." <BR/>Unfortunately, the Presiding Bishop just gave people who believe that about TEC more grist for the mill. Pittsburglive.com has this from her visit this weekend: "Jefferts Schori replied that like most Christians, she believes Jesus died for "the whole world." But his life and resurrection did not sever the promise God made to Jews and to Muslims, she added, and those groups still have access to salvation. <BR/><BR/>"I see evidence of holiness in people who are not Christians. I have to assume in some way God is present and important in those people who may not consciously know Jesus." Does that mean they're all saved? When I hear statements like that if makes me wonder why Jesus bothered when it wasn't necessary.<BR/> I know those here who love her dearly will say that she's not the pope so that's just her own opinion, but maybe then if her opinions cause so much trouble someone should tell her to follow the script and just talk about what the BCP states as doctrine as opposed to muddying the waters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18501263280878328612008-11-03T06:55:00.000-05:002008-11-03T06:55:00.000-05:00"Is it really worth more exits to take on a theolo..."Is it really worth more exits to take on a theological revision in the Creed? When does self-restraint make sense in this current leadership?"<BR/><BR/>But allen, the only people who would exit over taking the filioque out of the Creed are, presumably, the grossly ill-informed.<BR/><BR/>"You didn't mention the revision of the marriage rite being pushed. Or the revisionist salutation at the service opening that erases the Trinity."<BR/><BR/>Largely because I don't know anything about them. For the record, I'm ambivalent about gay marriage, and against excising the Trinity.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.com