tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post2867276159099773899..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: On the Bizarre Edge of Anglican LandMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2750758943818807912008-11-22T19:28:00.000-05:002008-11-22T19:28:00.000-05:00A couple of problems with that analysis, RB.First,...A couple of problems with that analysis, RB.<BR/><BR/>First, the "conservatives" have once again over-reached themselves. By pushing the parallel province now, they have forced the hand too soon. Patience MIGHT have given them a win down the road. Impatience will lead them to a defeat now.<BR/><BR/>Second, given that the CofE is legally precluded from signing a Covenant that gives any "teeth" to anyone outside the CofE, a "Covenant with teeth" is a dead letter. A Covenant sans teeth is unacceptable to the usual suspects.<BR/><BR/>In addition, the survey returns to the CDG from Lambeth indicate widespread distrust of the Primates - which is the body where potential "teeth" would most likely lie.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81613828582222194582008-11-22T07:41:00.000-05:002008-11-22T07:41:00.000-05:00I do not believe this new province will find accep...I do not believe this new province will find acceptance into the Anglican Communion this January. I do believe, however, that time is on their side. The Anglican Communion will adopt some sort of Covenant (this seems clear) while TEC will reject it. TEC will then relegated to a second-class membership status, will be offended by this, and will eventually lose interest in the Anglican Communion. Meanwhile, their presence in the Anglican Communion will grow more and more onerous to many of its other members. The new province, already in communion with much of the Anglican Communion, will look more and more viable as partners and members. <BR/><BR/>Give it five, maybe ten years. If they can escape the toxic conflict that affects TEC without developing a new one over WO or the prayer book, and can thrive and prosper, their prospects will be pretty good.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-19567360583413492502008-11-22T00:33:00.000-05:002008-11-22T00:33:00.000-05:00Ah, but George, your entire schismatical campaign ...Ah, but George, your entire schismatical campaign from the Chapman memo onward has been all about how you were the real Anglicans while we evil, hell-bound liberals weren't.<BR/><BR/>The very fact that you and yourn' have started writing off the Communion is the clearest proof there is - even you know you've lost.<BR/><BR/>And RB, I never made any claim of Anglican superiority to anyone. I merely pointed out that the schismatics have failed in their attempt to displace the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada as the holders of the Anglican "brand" or "franchise" in North America.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54217301522193034782008-11-21T09:07:00.000-05:002008-11-21T09:07:00.000-05:00If by Anglican you mean, independent and separated...If by Anglican you mean, independent and separated from the church catholic, no respecter of tradition, and a conviction that the Bible is just a book that recouints how a particular group of people perceived the divine, well then Malcolm-, you are right and we will also eschew the label "Anglican."Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076285319193349400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45848027818967936782008-11-21T08:03:00.000-05:002008-11-21T08:03:00.000-05:00Let's get this straight: The Episcopal Church its...Let's get this straight: The Episcopal Church itself is just another denomination of Christ's fractured Church. Our relationship to the Anglican Communion does not change that, since it also is a segment of Christ's fractured Church. And in no way is The Episcopal Church superior in this regard to the Baptists, the Methodists and the Pentecostals. Furthermore, being a "true Anglican" however you define it will not get me a special seat in heaven or preferred access to the Creator, or any other benefit that I can imagine, except maybe special bragging rights. I myself am a faithful "paid-up" though critical Episcopalian, so I guess I get to be a true Anglican, but this doesn't mean I have to be arrogantly so.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27840401617498832342008-11-21T01:03:00.000-05:002008-11-21T01:03:00.000-05:00Yes, George, I very much suspect that you will liv...Yes, George, I very much suspect that you will live without it. You will be just another denomination of Christ's fractured Church. And every bit as Anglican as the Baptists, the Methodists and the Pentecostals.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86553401138209202172008-11-20T23:27:00.000-05:002008-11-20T23:27:00.000-05:00I, for one, am enjoying watching your PB say that ...<I>I, for one, am enjoying watching your PB say that all is well while the church is homorrhaging. Likewise, I enjoy watching the HOB make fools of themselves with illegal depositions and extra-canonical actions. Finally, I think it important that as members of the GC church come to realize the death spiral into which they have entered, there be voices available telling them where to find refuge in a real Anglican church</I><BR/><BR/>Is there really further proof of how far from God, Christ and humanity these people needed?MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2061536696402738542008-11-20T14:56:00.000-05:002008-11-20T14:56:00.000-05:00No one commenting on the wonderful statement of th...No one commenting on the wonderful statement of the Secretary General of General Synod? Looks to me like very good news indeed.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62463812662719047762008-11-20T14:20:00.000-05:002008-11-20T14:20:00.000-05:00Would cetainly prefer to be recognized by the offi...Would cetainly prefer to be recognized by the official organs of the AC but we can certainly live without it.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076285319193349400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5901323320544680402008-11-20T13:12:00.001-05:002008-11-20T13:12:00.001-05:00I suspect George and his friends will care when th...I suspect George and his friends will care when the attempt to create a schismatic province fails to obtain the required consent of 26 primates.<BR/><BR/>Ephraim Radner - no liberal he - doesn't think they'll even be able to get a simple majority, let alone two-thirds.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52270162890657427992008-11-20T13:12:00.000-05:002008-11-20T13:12:00.000-05:00Another one who has trouble comprehending simple s...Another one who has trouble comprehending simple sentences. I said we don't give a hoot about your recognition or approval. That is not the same thing as saying we don't care about your reaction. I, for one, am enjoying watching your PB say that all is well while the church is homorrhaging. Likewise, I enjoy watching the HOB make fools of themselves with illegal depositions and extra-canonical actions. Finally, I think it important that as members of the GC church come to realize the death spiral into which they have entered, there be voices available telling them where to find refuge in a real Anglican church. So - DVBB, if that is stalkerish, I plead guilty.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076285319193349400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50851563735487485232008-11-20T12:56:00.000-05:002008-11-20T12:56:00.000-05:00Submit an application? That doesn't seem too onero...Submit an application? That doesn't seem too onerous. I doubt any promises were made concerning the outcome of such application. An application can be rejected. Perhaps the ABC is expecting to just forward it onto the appropriate bodies: the ACC and the Primates meeting where it will languish.<BR/><BR/>I think "Submit an application" is the appropriate answer.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01005537995315440769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-19821521217592301812008-11-20T11:52:00.000-05:002008-11-20T11:52:00.000-05:00>>>Quite simply, we no longer care.Yes, y...>>>Quite simply, we no longer care.<BR/><BR/>Yes, you guys care so little that you spend your days and nights trolling Episcopal blogs.<BR/><BR/>This all reminds me of those guys who swear that they are over their old girlfriends yet drive by their houses all the time, call constantly and hang up, etc.<BR/><BR/>It's all very stalkerish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-8235605269854003102008-11-20T11:20:00.000-05:002008-11-20T11:20:00.000-05:00Perhaps you don't understand what I wrote Leonardo...Perhaps you don't understand what I wrote Leonardo. I said nothing about lesbians gays, etc. I merely stated that we don't want, need or care whether or not TEC approves, applauds, objects, whines or cries. Its (TEC's - got that?) recognition is simple irrelevant. If that is still not clear, I could diagram the sentence for you.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076285319193349400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75673444718570111182008-11-20T09:50:00.000-05:002008-11-20T09:50:00.000-05:00Well thought out Nom and cogently argued but irrel...Well thought out Nom and cogently argued but irrelevant. The new province will be formed. It will be recognized by much if not most of the AC. If Canterbury refuses to recognize it, he will be largley ignored by the growing edges of the Communion. The new province does not need TEC's approval nor its recognition. Quite simply, we no longer care.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076285319193349400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15739301800005358172008-11-20T08:57:00.000-05:002008-11-20T08:57:00.000-05:00I still can't get past the phrase "submit an appli...I still can't get past the phrase "submit an application." Is the application on line? Are references required? If my kids can't get into college can they apply to the Anglican Communion? I'd feel better about this report if the information about the application were attributed to a source. That would allow us to make some judgments about its validity.Jim Naughtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03860752046479938764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59000561162798705992008-11-20T08:07:00.000-05:002008-11-20T08:07:00.000-05:00Actually, there is a problem with the creation of ...Actually, there is a problem with the creation of a parallel province, in that the proposal is to create such an entity based on a sectarian (versus catholic) principle. How these two provinces would interact, whether there would be any sort of recognizable communion between them, transferability of orders and so on, are significnat questions. It is obvious that in the short term there would be no meaningful co-operation between the two provinces (or three, actually, given that TEC and Canada are two). Other, perhaps, than the lingering lawsuits.<BR/><BR/>There is also a serious problem with the recognizability of orders. We have, in the CCP, all manner of person claiming episcopal orders whose orders cannot be recognized by the wider communion, and certainly not by the existing North American Provinces. Allowing the creation of such a new Province would import illegitimate orders through the back door, and render the canonical processes of the existing Provinces null and void. The problems with orders include orders of those who have been deposed or laicized (Duncan, Harvey, et al), those who have been illegitimately ordained (CANA, AMiA....), and those who are part of older schismatic bodies (REC etc). To accept these orders would be to allow anomalies in the apostolic succession, to legitimize border crossing, and to nullify existing canonical processes. The last point is quite serious, because we might as well repeal canonical processes for deposition and laicization, for they would no longer be of any effect.<BR/><BR/>Whatever desire there might be for generosity and reconciliation needs to take those factors into account.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I can't see it.<BR/><BR/>If the dissidents want to go off and create some new entity, then let them do it, and God bless them. They may be perfectly good Christians, with whom we might later collaborate in the spirit of, and with the limitations of, ecumenism. But to accept the creation of a new jurisdiction, overlapping TEC and Canada, and with full recognition of orders that we have determined by canonical process to be invalid or suspended? Nope. Sounds too much like a divorce with privileges.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, maybe I'm too hard-hearted or sinful, but my liberalism don't stretch that far.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53700668145309788242008-11-20T04:30:00.000-05:002008-11-20T04:30:00.000-05:00Still TEC does not get it.... yes, +Duncan was wel...Still TEC does not get it.... yes, +Duncan was welcomed by the ABC.....yes, the Windsor Report and the Covenant still stand....yes, even though it had a quarter of the bishops at Lambeth and indabas which, unlike in Africa, were designed to come to no conclusion, still TEC could not get a majority of the AC supporting its revisionist agenda, yes Lambeth 1.10 stands....the only way is out, TEC!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-640400130039341712008-11-20T03:31:00.000-05:002008-11-20T03:31:00.000-05:00Mark: Yes, the problem is not the creation of a pa...Mark: Yes, the problem is not the creation of a <I>parallel</I> Anglican province in North America. The problem is the desire to create a <I>replacement</I> Anglican province that would supplant The Episcopal Church. I've often wondered what would have happened if those who left had simply resigned, left the keys on the table, and "planted' a new Anglican province. I think pretty much everyone could have lived with that. They might even have been given the chance to purchase buildings from formerly viable Episcopal Churches.Tom Sramek, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17891982131922786298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64679109770236791612008-11-19T23:03:00.000-05:002008-11-19T23:03:00.000-05:00Robroy said..."I imagine the courts will look to t...Robroy said...<BR/><BR/>"I imagine the courts will look to the deed. I also imagine that this loop hole will be closed next summer".<BR/><BR/>When/if the GC gets around to demanding the deeds to churches be re-written then it's all over with. Even my ultra-loyalist fellow pew-sitters draw the line on that one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81833973925279240892008-11-19T22:49:00.000-05:002008-11-19T22:49:00.000-05:00Thanks MarkYour reply is helpful and hopeful!Thanks Mark<BR/>Your reply is helpful and hopeful!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21449842104987728322008-11-19T22:05:00.000-05:002008-11-19T22:05:00.000-05:00Peter Carrell...I would have no great problem, alt...Peter Carrell...I would have no great problem, although great sadness, if the new provincial thingy was benign and health, standing out there as an Anglican body different from TEC but NOT claiming that TEC was "the General Convention Church" devoid of engagement with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and to be rejected as unholy, uncatholic, and possibly heretical or perhaps apostate.<BR/><BR/>It is not the leaving that leaves me cold, it is the claim that those who remain have left, and not only left the true believers but done so because we no longer believe.<BR/><BR/>I'm as rotten a sinner as the next saved person, and I'll take my lumps in that regard. But it is not my being part of the Episcopal Church that makes me that. Rather the Episcopal Church is a creaky old religious ship that keeps me afloat while headed towards wholeness in Jesus Christ. It is neither better nor worse than, say the CCP and the new province.<BR/><BR/>But that's easy for me to say. It seems difficult for the realignment folk to say. It is they who, through the Jerusalem Declaration are set to reject this Church and its leadership and members.<BR/><BR/>But your point is right on. The continuing conflict could be solved if there were a way beyond condemnation. I would suggest that TEC is not committed to condemnation. Executive Council meant it about working for reconciliation even across the great divide.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30126770554181794292008-11-19T21:42:00.000-05:002008-11-19T21:42:00.000-05:00"Bishops Iker and Ackerman forgot that they used t..."Bishops Iker and Ackerman forgot that they used the notion that local parish churches are held in trust for the Episcopal Church"<BR/><BR/>The Dennis canon states that parish property is held for the diocese AND the national church. Thus, it is conflicted. I imagine the courts will look to the deed. I also imagine that this loop hole will be closed next summer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45223008597425661262008-11-19T21:40:00.000-05:002008-11-19T21:40:00.000-05:00SAIGPNAIt reminds me of certain waistlines and dou...SAIGPNA<BR/><BR/>It reminds me of certain waistlines and double chins and thoughtprocesses amongst the all holy mischiefmakers and their bloated bishop reps...a nice sorta ring to it...is a crest and coat of arms in work? (oh please let me design it)Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77781027991348765182008-11-19T17:37:00.000-05:002008-11-19T17:37:00.000-05:00#4 I think (and I've put a bit more detail on my b...#4 I think (and I've put a bit more detail on my blog) that there is a certain amount of playing with legal definitions in the General Secretary's answer.<BR/><BR/>Is a 'Request' (the language of the St Andrew's Draft) actually 'direction' or even 'puportedly' direction? <BR/><BR/>Perhaps this answer can be correct but not prevent the signing of the present draft of the Covenant, let alone the next recension.<BR/><BR/>It all depends what you mean by ...Paul Bagshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17694279608748668806noreply@blogger.com