tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post301964341522494778..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The Archbishop makes a mess.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17645990091159361872007-10-23T22:33:00.000-04:002007-10-23T22:33:00.000-04:00On October 23, Williams' press officer, the Rev. J...On October 23, Williams' press officer, the Rev. Jonathan Jennings, issued a clarification.<BR/><BR/>"It should be understood that the Archbishop's response to Bishop Howe was neither a new policy statement nor a roadmap for the future but a plain response to a very urgent and particular question about clergy in traditionalist dioceses in TEC who want to leave TEC for other jurisdictions, a response reiterating a basic presupposition of what the Archbishop believes to be the theology of the Church," Jennings told Episcopal News Service.<BR/><BR/>"The primary point was that -- theologically and sacramentally speaking -- a priest is related in the first place to his/her bishop directly, not through the structure of the national church; that structure serves the dioceses," he added. "The diocese is more than a 'local branch' of a national organization. Dr. Williams is clear that, whatever the frustration with the national church, priests should think very carefully about leaving the fellowship of a diocese. The provincial structure is significant, not least for the administration of a uniform canon law and a range of practical functions; Dr. Williams is not encouraging anyone to ignore this, simply to understand the theological priorities which have been articulated in a number of ecumenical agreements, and in the light of this not to increase the level of confusion and fragmentation in the church."Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-87676678212724116712007-10-23T14:09:00.000-04:002007-10-23T14:09:00.000-04:00To no one's surprise, I hope, Lambeth has issued a...To no one's surprise, I hope, Lambeth has issued a 'clarification' that says something rather a bit different than what the archbishop wrote. It suggests that he was saying that the connection of a priest to the whole church is through the bishop and that 'leaving' is not a good idea. Amazing. <BR/><BR/>I had no idea Welsh was so different from English! "Words mean what I want them too!" The Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland and ABp Williams any time he gets caught.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11190485859058440832007-10-23T11:13:00.000-04:002007-10-23T11:13:00.000-04:00andrew...of course there was no actual hitting ups...andrew...of course there was no actual hitting upside the head... that was a stretch. But I do not believe it was asked for, even if it was played out for a wider audience. But such matters as exorcism and slaying in the spirit are best done because requested. When they are not they become intrusions and a source of spiritual and sometimes physical assault. So...no there was no actual hitting, but what is exorcism if not a spiritual punch?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18869544622933064322007-10-23T10:54:00.000-04:002007-10-23T10:54:00.000-04:00It's a poorly written letter to be sure, but I thi...It's a poorly written letter to be sure, but I think progressives shouldn't underestimate the current crisis within the conservative ranks, as the schismatics amongst them set about to over turn the apple cart despite the ramifications it will have for not just the progressives but for themselves.<BR/><BR/>Here is Bishop Howe, a Windsor Compliant bishop, devoted to maintaining communion with Canterbury fighting to keep conservatives from leaving his dioceses. I'm sure Rowan and others are both astonished and appalled.<BR/><BR/>No one is forcing SSBs on them or gay clergy, much less a gay bishop, yet they can not bear to be apart of the apostate TEC.<BR/><BR/>The ABC and Howe are trying to dampen down the flames of schism that are consuming the conservatives at their own peril. Poorly worded yes, but completely understandable.C.B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17691002620980933111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51448982880854834442007-10-23T10:15:00.000-04:002007-10-23T10:15:00.000-04:00I am increasingly convinced the AB will say or wri...I am increasingly convinced the AB will say or write almost anything, on the basis that he can always, 'clarify' it away. Here he is writing to a single bishop who has the amazing idea that he and his diocese are 'Windsor compliant.' What in the world does that mean? But whatever it is, +++Williams is in favor of it -- I think. <BR/><BR/>This is a man who carries the betrayal of Fr. J. John as his legacy to the church. This is a man who is always willing to sacrifice others to appease the bullydox, and yet for some reason, we continue to act and the PB in particular continues to act as though his opinions matter. <BR/><BR/>It is time to say clearly who we are and let the ABC deal with the factions he has encouraged without either our help or cash. Now that should be an edifying sight! We may need a rather revolutionary GC to get to it, but none-the-less it is a worthy goal.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4373829077790045642007-10-23T10:11:00.000-04:002007-10-23T10:11:00.000-04:00I am fairly certain the ABC intended to communicat...I am fairly certain the ABC intended to communicate to "traditionalists" something along the lines of "don't give up and leave just because you perceive a misdirection in your national church." In the end, however, the well-meant appeal clearly raised many more questions than it answered.<BR/><BR/>I agree strongly with Mark that this (and, I would add, every) ABC should, in good faith, invite all bishops in good standing in their respective provinces to Lambeth for dialogue and fellowship. Having the singular Focus of Unity in office at the time effectively decide by invitation who is Anglican enough to take part in the workings of one "Instrument of Communion" - regardless of the on-the-ground realities in the provinces - is odd at best. <BR/><BR/>And then there is this: The Schedule of Membership in the Anglican Consultative Council - another "Instrument of Communion" - is itself entirely based on the "abstract reality" of national churches and provinces:<BR/><BR/>http://www.aco.org/acc/docs/constitution.cfm#s3<BR/><BR/>Too, the ACC's constitution requires - rather concretely - the participation of not only bishops, but also priests and - notably - laypeople. Clearly, then, there is more to this business of visible unity amongst Anglicans than the bishop in his or her diocese agreeing (and getting along with) "peers." And thanks be to God for that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-12023425962262947922007-10-23T09:51:00.000-04:002007-10-23T09:51:00.000-04:00There are also a number of links to Episcopal opin...There are also a number of links to Episcopal opinions and reflections <A HREF="http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/anglican_communion/think_before_you_leap.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> at Episcopal Cafe.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24192123881745103712007-10-23T03:18:00.000-04:002007-10-23T03:18:00.000-04:00"Hitting gay people upside the head in an attempt ..."Hitting gay people upside the head in an attempt at exorcism"? If this is a reference to Bishop Chukwama's attempt to exorcise Ritchie Kirker, I was watching and I don't think anyone was hit by anybody. I'm open to correction, but my clear impression is that both parties were happy to play this out for the cameras, convinced that the wider audience must be on their side. A hand may have been reached out, but it wasn't a blow. I'm not saying this to defend Chukwama; just in the interests of accuracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com