tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post3422685924197261270..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The unsought treasure: part 4 of the Draft CovenantMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-36641426403117953672009-05-18T01:27:00.000-04:002009-05-18T01:27:00.000-04:00How can orthodox carry on mission when the organiz...<I>How can orthodox carry on mission when the organization is more a homosexual rights group then a Christian denomination? <br /><br /></I>It's when I read a li(n)e like this, I can't help but wonder: is the writer "merely" insane, or actually demonically possessed? Both?<br /><br />All I can do, is pray for healing either way...<br /><br />JCF, on the road, who visited yet another Episcopal Church this morning for worship. Prayers were prayed, Jesus was eaten, but strangely enough, there was no evidence of a "homosexual rights group" anywhere to be found...JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-74185896027566248242009-05-14T19:24:00.000-04:002009-05-14T19:24:00.000-04:00Well, Robroy, as the good Dr. Radner packs his ort...Well, Robroy, as the good Dr. Radner packs his orthodite bags to leave for cleaner and more pure pastures, I am sure you are right that he will continue to blame everyone else but himself. <br /><br />I have read much of his writing and his "staying" has always been predicated on eradicating those who consented to Robinson's elevation to bishop, those who value and see justice in SSB and SSM, and those who don't share his very narrow scriptural interpretations. <br /><br />He laid a lot on the line manipulating the Ridley Cambridge draft into allowing a back door for ACNA to enter the AC and although he no longer speaks publicly about his IRD days, the influence of stealthily taking over the church through for conservatives by fomenting internal dissent has never quite disappeared, has it? <br /><br />I've no doubt the good Dr. Radner believes with all his heart that he is right and those who agree with him are right and that he is absolutely flabbergasted that everyone doesn't see that he and his supporters are right about everything. <br /><br />I wish him well, wherever the Spirit leads him. But I don't pity him nor give him a false martyrdom as he goes.Priscillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810106898462541118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83872313451346732362009-05-13T19:16:00.000-04:002009-05-13T19:16:00.000-04:00I think that Ephraim Radner+ probably sums it up b...I think that Ephraim Radner+ probably sums it up best in a recent essay posted at Titus:<br /><br /><I>Finally, and more personally, the ACC has only strengthened the sense that those traditional Anglicans who have “stayed” – in TEC, the Canadian Church, Global South engagement – have been yet again left to argue a case for which the Instruments themselves are offering little support, whether because of their own lack of commitment to this case or because simply of their own incapacity to speak and act clearly. Many of us are exhausted by this calling we have taken up, by the attacks it has engendered from all sides, and by the public indifference from Communion quarters to our work. We are friends of the Communion and its unity, as far as it can be maintained; yet some might think that such friendship is itself diseased.</I>Here is a guy of incredible resolve and character who is doing his darndest to stay in the TEC and yet remain faithful and finding it impossible. <br /><br />I have no doubt that Ephraim+ will be chased from the denomination. What a ridiculous waste it will be.robroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-90651339896086063372009-05-11T23:47:00.000-04:002009-05-11T23:47:00.000-04:00No one is asking the orthodites to leave . . . Not...<I>No one is asking the orthodites to leave . . . </I>Not entirely true, Priscilla. I and some others have been asking that for some time. They can only bring destruction, misery and despair by staying. It is pointless to try to maintain unity with those who seek to destroy us. Recently, I've begun to believe excommunication the best available option, and do not feel outrage that the AC may do the same to us.<br /><br />Living cells divide to grow the body.<br /><br />The Body of Christ does not depend on sharing a single brand name.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89290436349014301612009-05-11T21:43:00.000-04:002009-05-11T21:43:00.000-04:00Robroy,
Do you know what the pogroms were? Massa...Robroy,<br /><br />Do you know what the pogroms were? Massacres, and I mean mass murder, not disheartened souls. Usually followed by destruction of property (homes, schools, synagogues, crops, livestock...depended on the location).<br /><br />My college roommate's paternal grandfather <EM>just</EM> missed the pogrom of his home village in Russia. His mother had sent him - a young boy - out to collect kindling in the woods; he was able to hide before the attackers spotted him when he returned home. He never found any other survivors, they nicely timed the attack for the supper hour.<br /><br />Want to try again?Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09748809418423591030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3911817160680171812009-05-11T18:05:00.000-04:002009-05-11T18:05:00.000-04:00Priscilla, check out the simply amazing list of re...Priscilla, check out the simply amazing list of resolution after resolution on homosexual advocacy <A HREF="http://themcj.com/?p=4366" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<br /><br />How can orthodox carry on mission when the organization is more a homosexual rights group then a Christian denomination? Answer: they cannot. They are not allowed to vary from the party line.<br /><br />Jim, former archbishop Carey stated there is a real possibility that the orthodox will be completely cleansed from the Episcopal denomination. That possibility is looking more like a probability. It is a remarkable feat to be sure that certainly justifies the term pogrom to describe the theological cleansing. <br /><br />Unfortunately for the remaining, there is little to no evidence that the cleansed denomination can carry on. Interesting that the Unitarian Universalist "Church", which only has ~160,000 announced that membership declined slightly. But we hardly need two UU "Churches". <br /><br />Those remaining will be singing <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6s8Gy3l6k8" REL="nofollow">this</A>:<br /><br /><I>O, Death<br />O, Death<br />Won't you spare me over til another year<br />Well what is this that I can't see<br />With ice cold hands takin' hold of me<br />Well I am death, none can excel<br />I'll open the door to heaven or hell<br />Whoa, death someone would pray<br />Could you wait to call me another day<br />The children prayed, the preacher preached<br />Time and mercy is out of your reach<br />I'll fix your feet til you cant walk<br />I'll lock your jaw til you cant talk<br />I'll close your eyes so you can't see<br />This very air, come and go with me<br />I'm death I come to take the soul<br />Leave the body and leave it cold<br />To draw up the flesh off of the frame<br />Dirt and worm both have a claim</I>robroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-35633172356273083172009-05-11T12:03:00.000-04:002009-05-11T12:03:00.000-04:00It is my view that section 3.2 is NOT a treasure....It is my view that section 3.2 is NOT a treasure. And I would hope that the various provinces might think about it and then send in conditional signatures or amended, signed documents. One can hope.<br /><br />Priscilla, what you are not getting is the difference between valuing polity and valuing relationships. Robroy is 'driven out' because he looses a vote. You are motivated to seek change. That is the entire difference.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimB<br /><br />The security word is polizess!JimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86495940062920193072009-05-11T11:21:00.000-04:002009-05-11T11:21:00.000-04:00RevRita - it does seem that some "thieves" have de...RevRita - it does seem that some "thieves" have destroyed the covenant treasure which was the prospect of mending the "tear in the fabric of the Communion"....but I guess that is just fine for some as long as TECUSA gets its political way on a vote.....AC unity matters little to some in TECUSA, after all..... but staying in the club does matter given how few people, in the US and outside, attend liberal Anglican churches.....the big stage has to be captured as even greater irrelevance is the alternative. Political, procedural wins will not prove worth having.....remember Lameth 08 looked rather pathetic with 1/4 of the bishops from TECUSA (0.26% of the US population....and shrinking) but more than half of the AC not even there...... all that the politiking has achieved is the AC being on the brink - most Anglicans in the world have no need for Canterbury etc....they are bigger and growing, even in the West, without revisionist ideas to stem that growth..... even in sceptical old England, guess which CofE churches attract hundreds, even thousands of British people each week? Don't rejoice too much over a political win....liberalism dies out in the next few decades anyway (given so few people under 40 are in liberal Anglican churches) because fewer and fewer attend each week to hear the doubts and uncertainties of liberal vicars.....even in England, even in the US as TECUSA's dwindling Sunday attendance shows. In a hundred years, there will be lectures on how "inclusivity" as a goal included fewer and fewer people in liberal Anglican circles until extinction... not really inclusive ultimately. No doubt you guys have hundreds of people aged 15-35 in your liberal churches and know that I am talking rubbish........ or maybe you know it is the truth and don't really care as long as the political aims of TECUSA in the AC are wonObservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77358035850710582512009-05-11T09:38:00.000-04:002009-05-11T09:38:00.000-04:00Pogrom?
I think an apology is required.
Jim Nau...Pogrom? <br /><br />I think an apology is required.<br /><br />Jim NaughtonJim Naughtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03860752046479938764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-32700611398693911792009-05-10T15:02:00.000-04:002009-05-10T15:02:00.000-04:00Robroy, well, no. No one is asking the orthodites...Robroy, well, no. No one is asking the orthodites to leave, although at times I do think it would be better if we did part, in many ways, I still think it is the wrong thing to do.<br /><br />That's the part of being a conservative I will NEVER understand. If you oppose gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex! Don't attend a gay marriage service! Tell you children, your neighbors, your coworkers, your fellow parishioners and priests that you oppose it with all your will! Ban LGBT from coming into your home and actively work to deny them equality through the political process! Write screeds, tracts, and books, give speeches decrying all things LGBT! Donate money to anti-LGBT causes and reparative therapy centers! <br /><br />All of these things are not only been "allowed" in today's TEC, and pretty much everywhere in the Anglican communion, they remains the norm. They are not banned nor are they reason for excommunication nor a pronouncement of anathema. Granted, some people will avoid those who have these inclinations, much as they themselves avoid LGBTs like the plague, but that is the price for one's beliefs.<br /><br />Yet every Sunday we open our same prayer books, follow the same order of service, sing the same hymns, listen to the same reading from the same bible, take the same communion, share a cup of same coffee or tea with a cookie, and go on about our daily lives. We still celebrate the same holy days together, we still engage in charitable outreach in our communities. <br /><br />It was this "live and let live" attitude that brought me into TEC 20 years ago. The only difference I see now is that instead of working from the assumption that LGBT are dirty, disgusting perverts and damned sinners destined for hell because the "biblesaysso" we have instead acknowledged that all baptized Christians are beloved by God, and welcome at His table. <br /><br />I don't understand why welcoming all into full baptismal covenant within TEC and the AC is untenable for orthodites, who knowingly or unknowingly kneel side by side to receive communion from adulterers, thieves, liars, usurers, and all other manner of sinner every time they have ever taken communion their entire lives. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God yet LGBT sinners are somehow grounds for schism and church abandonment. <br /><br />I've enjoyed my conservative/traditionalist brothers and sisters and developed close relationships with them. I don't want them to leave! I didn't leave the church when the status quo was hating on LGBT Christians, when women were considered second class at best, when the black church and the white church on the same block didn't even know each other's names, let alone share worship of God. <br /><br />Yet the orthodites claim they are actively being driven out. No, they are not! ALL are welcome. None may exclude or deny. The way Jesus presented it, right? I just don't get it.Priscillahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810106898462541118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14794557793211577572009-05-10T11:59:00.000-04:002009-05-10T11:59:00.000-04:00Funny video! ("We thought you was a toad.")
The C...Funny video! ("We thought you was a toad.")<br /><br />The Covenant is dead or at least awaiting exodontofication. The Communion Partners thought had looked to it as a way to stay faithful and yet be part of the Episcopal denomination. That is now taken away from them. George Carey's prediction is looking more true, the pogrom of all orthodox from the denomination will occur in short order. But those that remain will realize that they have just sawed off the branch that they were sitting on.robroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64590958327829033892009-05-09T14:57:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:57:00.000-04:00I wonder how Anglicanland will deal with Sunday's ...I wonder how Anglicanland will deal with Sunday's (Easter V) lection from I John 4.7-21?<br /><br />JAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4517832154922895062009-05-09T14:00:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:00:00.000-04:00RevRita said what I was thinking... exactly!
Thank...RevRita said what I was thinking... exactly!<br />Thank you, Fr. Mark, for keeping us informed.SCGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162762233972733978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84021141169416062332009-05-09T09:42:00.000-04:002009-05-09T09:42:00.000-04:00More a post-nuptial agreement?More a post-nuptial agreement?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2639489840330715552009-05-09T09:17:00.000-04:002009-05-09T09:17:00.000-04:00"Do not store up for yourselves treasures (and, th..."Do not store up for yourselves treasures (and, that includes covenant treasures) on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures (like seek and serve Christ in all persons, and...respect the dignity of evey human being. BCP pg. 305) in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matt. 6:19-20)RevRitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08996044152916316044noreply@blogger.com