tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post3450124635722038050..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Bishop Iker's ReasoningMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64080261974073558642011-10-24T19:53:28.268-04:002011-10-24T19:53:28.268-04:00marshall you said, and i quote (This is less about...marshall you said, and i quote (This is less about his views, and more about his unwillingness to live and work where he and his views are not dominant). This is not a true statement! The truth is we should all be unwilling to turn from the teachings our faith is based on. So please do not condemn the rock for being solid, blame it on the mud that will go where you put it.Zoe Honeanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84086815253867395532008-10-07T11:48:00.000-04:002008-10-07T11:48:00.000-04:00So can someone please tell me why no so-called "or...So can someone please tell me why no so-called "orthodox" bishops or clergy ever brought +Spong up on a heresy charge--as they certainly had the power (and I would say the DUTY) to do?<BR/><BR/>If you are supposed to be a defender of "the faith once delivered to the saints," I'd love to know why you didn't defend the faith when you had the chance. Years and years of chances, to be precise.<BR/><BR/>Could it be because +Spong made too good of a whipping boy where he was? I can't think of any other reasonable explanation--but then I'm a cynic. <BR/><BR/>(And please don't even insult my intelligence by trying to argue that no one believed a heresy trial would lead to +Spong's deposition. You either believe in the importance of countering heresy, or you don't---or you find heresy a...useful...tool. Which makes you an opportunist, and hardly a model of Christian anything.)<BR/><BR/>DoxyWormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1350874579243177552008-10-06T23:52:00.000-04:002008-10-06T23:52:00.000-04:00Allen,This has been explained ad nauseam, and the ...Allen,<BR/><BR/>This has been explained <I>ad nauseam</I>, and the fact that you refuse to listen shows positively that the only reason you stay is to make others suffer - certainly not love, whether of God or your neighbor.<BR/><BR/>You don't have to leave. <I>I</I> certainly wish you would, but I only speak for myself. You're simply boring and selfish.<BR/><BR/>Again, why should we be expected to take you seriously?MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40538563216189490052008-10-06T23:49:00.000-04:002008-10-06T23:49:00.000-04:00To clarify, I don't doubt you don't believe you ar...<I>To clarify</I>, I don't doubt you <B>don't</B> believe you are being manipulated as a part of someone's number. I believe you are, and your response of "Nuh-uh!" is not convincing. It's loving to tell you that before you go too far.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43301654242450076692008-10-06T20:44:00.000-04:002008-10-06T20:44:00.000-04:00Pike was a serious head case. How can you attack ...Pike was a serious head case.<BR/> How can you attack someone who is dead? That's as stupid as praying for them. You can't help or harm the dead.<BR/> Wandering off into the desert with no map, trying to contact his son with a Ouji board-nuts.Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61367028148816480822008-10-04T11:34:00.000-04:002008-10-04T11:34:00.000-04:00To clarifyI said it was unloving to say that someo...To clarify<BR/><BR/>I said it was unloving to say that someone was being manipulated when the person was not being manipulated.<BR/><BR/>BTW I am not part of anyone’s number.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-87923397919849034412008-10-04T10:52:00.000-04:002008-10-04T10:52:00.000-04:00The generous liberal tendency in this blog to "jus...The generous liberal tendency in this blog to "just leave" begs the question of how kind liberals make "room" for liberality.<BR/><BR/>Bishops Pike and Spong were given too much room, and were wagged at. That's all. Since (dah-veed) and others believe me ill-suited to interpret Spong, how about a liberal archbishop who admired Spong?<BR/><BR/>http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13880.htm<BR/><BR/>The questions of why a massive movement of rejection of liberalism and a new Anglicanism in North America is a "done deal" are still dodged. Pike and Spong's mild wags left room for:<BR/><BR/>Andrus of California: endorsing a gay "pride" parade which was more than marching in pride. His cathedral has worship centers for world religions that deny the claims of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>Chane of D.C.: didn't hesitate a moment to blend Muslim Koran and Christian biblical readings during services at the Nat Cat.<BR/><BR/>...and Bruno of California: presided/was present at SSB and then told the world that he knew of none in his diocese.<BR/><BR/>The door was opened by Pike and Spong. The HOB valued blending in liberality above teaching the faith, and now a new Anglican province is formed in America.<BR/><BR/>So...it's not just about Bishop Iker's reasoning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-74959651499348655052008-10-04T10:00:00.000-04:002008-10-04T10:00:00.000-04:00Told you.Told you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18117854100769852362008-10-04T00:00:00.000-04:002008-10-04T00:00:00.000-04:00You do realize Bishop Pike was censured, yes?Is at...You do realize Bishop Pike was censured, yes?<BR/><BR/>Is attacking a dead man part of orthodoxy, now?<BR/><BR/>That leaves you two options: either address the issues you have with Spong with Spong or <I>just leave!</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not a romantic like so many others here; I have no hope of a reconciliation. We, simply stated, believe what you are doing is harmful, self-and-other-destructive, and morally wrong. You believe the same of us. There is <B>not</B> a middle ground, in this instance. The difference seems to lay in the fact that most of us have no problem with your going off to make your own church or join another, if you feel you don't have the chops to start your own - we believe we are right but with the good sense/humility to realize we may be wrong, while you will not be able to tolerate our mere existence as a "liberal" church, as you assume an absolute rightness that is self-evident. (It's not, by the way). <BR/><BR/>It is telling to me that you have one of your number complaining that it is "unloving" to tell someone they are manipulated because they have a different view . . . <BR/><BR/>. . but that is <B>exactly</B> what you are doing. <BR/><BR/>It is telling about your own motivations and lack of self-insight.<BR/><BR/>How can you possibly expect us to take you seriously?!MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41901460310521204572008-10-03T21:49:00.000-04:002008-10-03T21:49:00.000-04:00Guys there are plenty devout Christians who do not...Guys there are plenty devout Christians who do not accept penal substitution as an explanation or interpretation of the Atonement.<BR/><BR/>Many Christians do not take the stories in the Gospels as literal history, including the miracle stories.<BR/><BR/>To understand Spong's concept of the raising of Jesus you would actually need to read his work, apart from the snippets represented in the theses. And the Apostle Paul's writings as well.<BR/><BR/>And none of this can be covered in little sound bites in a blog.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91272055336400404022008-10-03T16:51:00.000-04:002008-10-03T16:51:00.000-04:00Learning experience de jour:Not only cannot Dan or...Learning experience de jour:<BR/><BR/>Not only cannot Dan or Allen read the Bible, they cannot read Bp. Spong. WOW!<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30503915425925176802008-10-03T11:41:00.000-04:002008-10-03T11:41:00.000-04:00David: Number 7 of Spong’s “12 Theses” is this: “R...David: Number 7 of Spong’s “12 Theses” is this: “Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. <B>It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history.</B>” [emphasis mine]<BR/><BR/>(For good measure, number 5 is: “The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.”)<BR/><BR/>Maybe you need to re-read those books?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21608787758009323612008-10-03T10:54:00.000-04:002008-10-03T10:54:00.000-04:00David (dah-veed):http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/...David (dah-veed):<BR/><BR/>http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/reform.html<BR/><BR/>I should not have to explain past the point of his plain English these theses by Bishop Spong:<BR/><BR/>"6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.<BR/>7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history".<BR/><BR/>Shall we even have to go into Bishop Pike? Somehow, I expect an excuse which gives a free pass to this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15068459545315143362008-10-03T10:24:00.000-04:002008-10-03T10:24:00.000-04:00For Dah -veeeeeed"Resurrection is an action of God...For Dah -veeeeeed<BR/>"Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human history." This from one of Jack Spong's 12 Feces.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255039502818031564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30694822033059266372008-10-03T01:42:00.000-04:002008-10-03T01:42:00.000-04:00To call the resurrection (basically) a fantasy and...<I> To call the resurrection (basically) a fantasy and a lie is heresy of the worst kind.</I><BR/><BR/>Book and page number please. I have and have read all of his books. He has never said that.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69527236030972248662008-10-02T23:41:00.000-04:002008-10-02T23:41:00.000-04:00The free passes on self-indulgent theology and pra...<I>The free passes on self-indulgent theology and practive have led us to the disgraceful mess that we are mired in.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly!<BR/><BR/>We have Iker, Duncan, Schofield, Ackerman because we <I>allowed</I> them. Hopefully, after this mess is cleared up, we will have learned our lesson.<BR/><BR/><I>It's time to recognize the movement and stop railing against the point people. </I><BR/><BR/>Precisely!<BR/><BR/>Stop the arrogance and gall of saying that it's a few "elitists" or "gay agitators" trying to change TEC for the better and holier!MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-80696711601503801912008-10-02T20:14:00.000-04:002008-10-02T20:14:00.000-04:00country parson noted:"Does anyone really care what...country parson noted:<BR/><BR/>"Does anyone really care what Pike and Spong have said"?<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry good Reverend sir, but the fact that many sat idle and gave room for these fallacies is why we are where we are. If you and others DON'T care that Bishop Spong denied or revised key doctrine, then you were part of the problem. To call the resurrection (basically) a fantasy and a lie is heresy of the worst kind. But, this is TEC...anything goes, right? Via media has been captured and shook down to mean that it's OK to blend almost anything. At least it was in these two fine bishops' lives...and in the lives of those who let them rant their views without consequence. The free passes on self-indulgent theology and practive have led us to the disgraceful mess that we are mired in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6383723525526042812008-10-02T16:51:00.000-04:002008-10-02T16:51:00.000-04:00Phil--Just saying. I'm not inclined to hand over ...Phil--Just saying. I'm not inclined to hand over a safe haven to anyone whose orthodoxy includes discrimination. I believe we have had the conversation before.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08081057869810309769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77360025152189620152008-10-02T15:08:00.000-04:002008-10-02T15:08:00.000-04:00JW,I could just as easily find reasons in the Scri...JW,<BR/><BR/>I could just as easily find reasons in the Scriptures to stone my child, or gouge my eyes out for looking at the Swimsuit Issue of Sports Illustrated. If we're going to go that route, let's reinstate slavery! Or better yet, how 'bout a good ole fashioned witch burning during these cold upcoming winter months. Honestly...<BR/><BR/>I'm sick of this argument. If you wanna go, then go, good riddance, God Speed, Aufitezein, etc. Just leave the silverware and the fine china, would you? There's a good lad.Rev. Raggsdalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13758964410206834685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22868611556129216192008-10-02T14:28:00.000-04:002008-10-02T14:28:00.000-04:00Ok, Bishop Iker and others are leaving. We know. O...Ok, Bishop Iker and others are leaving. We know. Oh, boy do we know. So, what does it really mean?<BR/><BR/>To read these posts one would think that TEC is being haunted by about a dozen rogue bishops who are leading ignoramouses around by the nose.<BR/><BR/>That's my point. The utter gall of TEC's apologists seems to be that the clergy and laity of these dioceses are just pointless in these observations. <BR/><BR/>Subtract Iker, Duncan, and about 50 more "agitators". You won't see the problems disappear. When you have one person you have an idea. When you have 1,000 you have a movement. When you have the potential of appx. 50,000 +/- people observing the same ideas and advocating for change you have an ideology to deal with.<BR/><BR/>Will anybody next dare to have an expose' called "TEC'S DUMB SHEEP"?<BR/><BR/>It's time to recognize the movement and stop railing against the point people. It degrades everyone as being blind and gullible. And that, my friends, shows utter contempt and elitist arrogance. IMHO: the very reason that we are in this mess to start with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54302646532873977752008-10-02T14:08:00.000-04:002008-10-02T14:08:00.000-04:00leaving homosexuality aside, how does Bp. Iker def...<I>leaving homosexuality aside, how does Bp. Iker define orthodoxy? </I><BR/><BR/>Steven, homosexuality <I>is</I> how these people define orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>It's the only issue that unites this strange collection of cryptopapists, Sprinkling Baptists, Pentecostals, and Calvinists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43864902903384324422008-10-02T08:13:00.000-04:002008-10-02T08:13:00.000-04:00I continue to be amazed at the petty, self indulge...I continue to be amazed at the petty, self indulgent bickering that goes on in these posts. The exchanges have all the intellectual integrity of television rock throwing between Olberman and O'Reilly, and they seldom appear to have anything to do with Christian faith in the Anglican tradition of the Episcopal Church. What I want to know is this; leaving homosexuality aside, how does Bp. Iker define orthodoxy? What exactly is it that the PB teaches that is not orthodox? Does anyone really care what Pike and Spong have said?<BR/>CPCountry Parsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02727241474360657192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91906637698617592312008-10-02T02:33:00.000-04:002008-10-02T02:33:00.000-04:00Hello Marshall - sorry, but I don't think stayi...Hello Marshall - sorry, but I don't think staying in a community which is not united and wants to contain contradictory views is sustainable or healthy for anyone in the long term.... I don't really understand why TEC bends over backwards (eg BO33) to stay in the AC (with Akinola and Venables!!!) when all that is achieved is that TEC is both divisive and divided. Better to be honest about differences and split amicably - better for all of us. <BR/><BR/>Also, reading 1 Cor 5:9-13 and Romans 6:1-2, I think +Iker and others are right to challenge certain revisions made in TEC in the last few years - they can do no other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-44576120322446354502008-10-02T00:56:00.000-04:002008-10-02T00:56:00.000-04:00I'm sorry to be so blunt, but all I hear is a lot ...I'm sorry to be so blunt, but all I hear is a lot of Reasserter bitching and whining.<BR/><BR/>If the depositions had been by a Reasserter-dominated HoB, for the express reason of punishing the Bishops for their beliefs, there would be no complaints from the Reasserters here. <BR/><BR/>Casting aspersions (TEC is greedy! TEC is vengeful! TEC is blah, blah, blah) is childish and, frankly, boring. <BR/><BR/>Go away, if you want, but, until you walk away from the property willingly yourselves, stop this hypocritical, <B>self-indulgent</B> and utterly self-serving complaining about how greedy <I>we</I> are! How <I>dare</I> you sit there in one breath making fairy-tales about your martyrdom while in the next making the same snap judgments about our motivations? What is <I>wrong</I> with you?! <BR/><BR/>I think you are perfectly right to believe what you do -- for <B>you</B>. I think you are perfectly free to do as you do -- for <B>you</B>. Stop acting like a selfish adult child who wants to live with Mommy and Daddy while contributing nothing and upsetting the whole household. You're certainly willing to sully your own hands with greed for "your" property.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-74566194025913202992008-10-01T23:55:00.000-04:002008-10-01T23:55:00.000-04:00Bishop Iker, God Bless Him, is being called to be ...Bishop Iker, God Bless Him, is being called to be a witness and a prophet. I agree with most of the left that he ought to just leave TEC and the entire Anglican Communion and find somewhere else to be. The Anglican experiment is failed, and ought to be left behind. I care not a whit for property, or even for cemeteries. We were wrong, and I was personally wrong for 40 plus years to even buy into the Anglican lie, so Bishop Iker, it doesn't have to be this hard, there's a fair land waiting for you on the other side of the river. <BR/><BR/>JoelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com