tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post385074556797720009..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The "Anglican Church" is not AnglicanMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48028001699216641362008-10-28T10:57:00.000-04:002008-10-28T10:57:00.000-04:00This is Joseph Gleason, editor of The North Americ...This is Joseph Gleason, editor of The North American Anglican journal.<BR/><BR/>I find it hilarious that anyone would dare to call Common Cause "schismatic". Ha!<BR/><BR/>Regardless of your pet innovative theology, just think for a moment:<BR/><BR/>1) For centuries, did the historic Anglican Church ordain women?<BR/><BR/>2) For centuries, did the historic Anglican Church ordain homosexuals?<BR/><BR/>Even the most liberal person has to admit the answer is obviously "no" on both counts.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, who is being schismatic, TEC, or Common Cause?<BR/><BR/>You folks want to claim Thomas Cranmer as your spiritual grandfather. Yet he would have been the first to excommunicate Schori and the rest of TEC. Were Cranmer alive today, he himself would be a prime candidate for archbishop.<BR/><BR/>But I suppose Thomas Cranmer is not Anglican enough for you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77431119715412471112008-10-15T02:47:00.000-04:002008-10-15T02:47:00.000-04:00it seems to me that leaving TEC does not equate wi...<I>it seems to me that leaving TEC does not equate with being "homophobic"</I><BR/><BR/>And that's NOT what I said, David L. <BR/><BR/>When you leave out the qualifier ("for the schismatics---whether SoCone, AMIA, CANA, or the Ugandan/Kenyan-Whatnot"), you completely change the meaning. [Those who are fed up w/ TEC's <I>pace</I> on the journey towards Gospel justice---e.g., leaving for the MCC or UCC---aren't homophobic, obviously!]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4883890317839437942008-10-14T13:58:00.000-04:002008-10-14T13:58:00.000-04:00:: adopts his best, baseball park vendor voice ::P...:: adopts his best, baseball park vendor voice ::<BR/><BR/>Program! Getcha program! Can't tell one continuing Anglican sect from another without ya program!Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31330564503499179632008-10-14T13:44:00.000-04:002008-10-14T13:44:00.000-04:00David,I thank you. Interesting.FWIWjimBDavid,<BR/><BR/>I thank you. Interesting.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68381279069198899662008-10-13T17:49:00.000-04:002008-10-13T17:49:00.000-04:00pimf - secessionpimf - secessionThe Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-72220540530086866512008-10-13T11:36:00.000-04:002008-10-13T11:36:00.000-04:00jcf said:"...To have left TEC for the schismatics-...jcf said:"...To have left TEC for the schismatics---whether SoCone, AMIA, CANA, or the Ugandan/Kenyan-Whatnot---is to be homophobic. Period"<BR/><BR/>Interesting statement: I guess you can have your opinion, but it seems to me that leaving TEC does not equate with being "homophobic"David Laughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09282807541960856215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64884783613828605732008-10-13T11:27:00.000-04:002008-10-13T11:27:00.000-04:00To have left TEC for the schismatics---whether SoC...<I>To have left TEC for the schismatics---whether SoCone, AMIA, CANA, or the Ugandan/Kenyan-Whatnot---is to be homophobic. Period.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that's putting too fine a point on it. Loyalty, even ecclesiastical loyalty, is a complex thing. At the time of the Civil War there were people who thought that succession was a terrible mistake but who, when their own state seceded, supported it. Perhaps something like this has happened with some of the schismatics.<BR/><BR/>For that matter, maybe they buy the theological arguments involved. Maybe they aren't homophobic, but believe, as it were, that God is (by our standards). <BR/><BR/>Just I don't think that all Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, even those who support their Church's teaching on sexuality - even those who left ECUSA to get to wherever they are - are homophobes, I don't think all the schismatics are, either.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34339515665423040192008-10-13T11:24:00.000-04:002008-10-13T11:24:00.000-04:00JimB asked: "Which are you telling me, that the fo...JimB asked: "Which are you telling me, that the former bishop of Pittsburgh ordered liberal women, or that neither he nor his ordinands were homophobic?"<BR/><BR/>There are women priests/deacons ordained by the former Bishop of Pittsburgh (TEC) on both sides of the issue of realignment. <BR/><BR/>Also I do not think that because one is in favor of realignment that it indicates the person is homophobic.<BR/><BR/>That is what I am saying.David Laughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09282807541960856215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11334038563816187762008-10-13T08:43:00.000-04:002008-10-13T08:43:00.000-04:00"If you schismatics are going to come here to Prel..."If you schismatics are going to come here to Preludium, I'm going to call a spade a spade, and a sin a sin."<BR/><BR/>Preach it JCF!<BR/><BR/>Nobody is fooled by these It's-not-about-the-gays arguments except yourselves.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39315131500628910702008-10-13T01:49:00.000-04:002008-10-13T01:49:00.000-04:00I'm curious about this, jimB, as well.none of the ...I'm curious about this, jimB, as well.<BR/><BR/><I>none of the women I know (from either of the Pittsburgh Dioceses, (SC or TEC) who have been ordained here are homophobic. Such false sterotypes are not helpful.</I><BR/><BR/>Who's stereotyping, David? To <I>have left TEC for the schismatics</I>---whether SoCone, AMIA, CANA, or the Ugandan/Kenyan-Whatnot---is <B>to be homophobic</B>. Period.<BR/><BR/>Unlike their (so-called) "Global South" titular primates, the U.S. schismatics live in a culture, where it's less and less socially-acceptable (Praise Christ!) to be <I>seen</I> as homophobic. That doesn't make it any less true, however.<BR/><BR/>Bob of Fremont, for example, has moved on: moved onto WHAT???<BR/><BR/>To homophobia, encouraged from his pulpit.<BR/><BR/>To <I>sin</I>.<BR/><BR/>If you schismatics are going to come here to Preludium, I'm going to call a spade a spade, and a sin a sin.<BR/><BR/>Homophobes, in the Name of Jesus Christ, REPENT!<BR/><BR/>Merciful Christ, lead us ALL into greater conformity to your Holy Will. Amen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67075361263992620872008-10-12T21:21:00.000-04:002008-10-12T21:21:00.000-04:00David,Which are you telling me, that the former bi...David,<BR/><BR/>Which are you telling me, that the former bishop of Pittsburgh ordered liberal women, or that neither he nor his ordinands were homophobic?<BR/><BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11910512965649419302008-10-12T13:57:00.000-04:002008-10-12T13:57:00.000-04:00Just as an aside, ANY of us who are ordained are s...Just as an aside, ANY of us who are ordained are still only Mr. (or the appropriate gender reference) because Rev. or Rt. Rev. are not titles, but adjectives. They are descriptive and so the appropriate rendering is THE Rev. or THE Rt. Rev., etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67187759358264904282008-10-12T13:37:00.000-04:002008-10-12T13:37:00.000-04:00"And this is what bothers me so much. What about l..."And this is what bothers me so much. What about la gente local? I feel as though the locals are being used (and ignored)."<BR/><BR/>The same is true for Africa.<BR/><BR/>Just wait until American imperial reach (aka "security interests") runs into the wall of offended Nigerian or Rwandan nationalism, and then see how fast the CANA or AMIA congregations want to sever ties to their Archbishops. I don't expect those marriages of convenience will last very long.<BR/><BR/>After all, the Africans themselves remember that it was those very liberals that they now so despise who worked hardest for an end to the apartheid regimes in South Africa and Zimbabwe (the former Rhodesia). Meanwhile, their new found conservative brethren were praying for the "besieged" Afrikaaners.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63880220566542287702008-10-11T19:19:00.000-04:002008-10-11T19:19:00.000-04:00"Bishop Venables, noted mostly for his willingness..."Bishop Venables, noted mostly for his willingness for a moment to swamp his small Province with white English speaking bishops and clergy who have no interest in the Province of the Southern Cone except as a way station, is the Patron of the Federation of Anglican Churches in the Americas."<BR/><BR/>And this is what bothers me so much. What about la gente local? I feel as though the locals are being used (and ignored).Caminantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16610142955176992982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3938159339874748222008-10-11T18:07:00.000-04:002008-10-11T18:07:00.000-04:00Jim, the TEC hasn't seen 2.5 million in greater th...Jim, the TEC hasn't seen 2.5 million in greater than 10 years. Domestic membership is at 2.15 million. The denomination is losing the equivalent of about 6 parishes per week. <BR/><BR/>Paul is upset that AMiA churches are using the '79 prayerbook, but he should be happy to know that they have just come out with a new prayerbook that is is the "experimental" stage. I believe that it was written by the Prayerbook society and is much closer to the '28. <BR/><BR/>One of the exciting things about the realignment is that it appears to have the power to bring together some of the diaspora. I think that Anglo-Catholics will find a much more friendly home than under KJS. I also think it is probably true that Rowan Williams won't recognize the new province, but it is probably true that he won't <I>not</I> recognize either. I am eager to find out who will be at the primates meetings. I don't see the GS primates ever sitting down with KJS again. RW got them to do it at DeS, but then she did the "I was only a messenger" business after verbally signaling her assent to the entire meeting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91452631394441208612008-10-11T16:18:00.000-04:002008-10-11T16:18:00.000-04:00Well, Iker could become Russian or Greek or Serb o...<I>Well, Iker could become Russian or Greek or Serb or Romanian....<BR/>But, as you pointed out, he's (and all Anglican/Episcopal clergy) are still only 'Mr.' (or 'Ms./Mrs./Miss').</I><BR/><BR/>+Iker could become an ordained priest in an Eastern Orthodox Church, but unfortunately for him he would be ineligible to be a bishop (only bachelors or widowers need apply). I think that's a deal-breaker.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54795950227133708772008-10-11T15:09:00.000-04:002008-10-11T15:09:00.000-04:00Why not take a look at Anglicans Online website li...Why not take a look at Anglicans Online website list of Anglican Churches 'not in communion with Canterbury' it's at: http://anglicansonline.org/communion/nic.html<BR/><BR/>It's the graveyard where all continuing movements headed by purists seem to end up.penwatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04363809450765158672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-76852568789908488602008-10-11T14:33:00.000-04:002008-10-11T14:33:00.000-04:00Well, Iker could become Russian or Greek or Serb o...Well, Iker could become Russian or Greek or Serb or Romanian....<BR/> But, as you pointed out, he's (and all Anglican/Episcopal clergy) are still only 'Mr.' (or 'Ms./Mrs./Miss').Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20861261457313635702008-10-11T12:53:00.000-04:002008-10-11T12:53:00.000-04:00jimB said: "..Pittsburgh ordains homophobic women....jimB said: "..Pittsburgh ordains homophobic women.."<BR/><BR/>Jim not sure where you get your information, but none of the women I know (from either of the Pittsburgh Dioceses, (SC or TEC) who have been ordained here are homophobic.<BR/><BR/>Such false sterotypes are not helpful.<BR/><BR/>That being said the women priests and deacons in EDPSC are in a precarious position (by their choice). Pittsburgh Diocese will be "odd man out" in the new Amercan Province and will find itself, once again, out of step with the majority of their Province!David Laughlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09282807541960856215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48681201489535243842008-10-11T11:00:00.000-04:002008-10-11T11:00:00.000-04:00"Except for an occassional venture here to see wha..."Except for an occassional venture here to see what is happening on the other side of the divide, we have moved on..."<BR/><BR/>Patently untrue, as a look at sites like SFiF will show. For that matter, Bob, you yourself don't seem to be able to keep away.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-9667061669322141642008-10-11T10:11:00.000-04:002008-10-11T10:11:00.000-04:00So now we will have four African primates, one ren...So now we will have four African primates, one renegade Australian archbishop, one gold digging South American primate, one South Asian retired primate and an indigenous 'archbishop' all claiming to be the real top dog in Canada and the US. <BR/><BR/>Were the holy people to get all of the Episcopal church, there are only about 2.5 million of us. And at this point, they look to have most of what they will get. But in fact, they wont get more than a few thousand more. If and it wont, the entire diocese of Quincy went that way, that is 4,000 <I>Anglo Catholics</I> as Bp. Akerman has seen ASA drop a by a third during his (self confessed brilliant) tenure. They are NOT gonna be happy in 39 article orthodox land!<BR/><BR/>Fort Worth may split, but likely in will also fracture. Not everyone is in the hate TEC modality, in spite of his best efforts.<BR/><BR/>After that who knows? If Springfield follows, there will be fractures within fractures. The congregations in Champain Urbana have a population of university liberals. I suspect as the church prevails in various courts, loyalty may increase ;-) in other diocese.<BR/><BR/>Over all, I do not see the income to make all of these guys comfortable. And as a group, they seem to like comfort. <BR/><BR/>AMiA sort of ordains women (deacon only) Pittsburgh ordains homophobic women, Uganda ordains women, the rest are too holy to let girls talk or anything. Schisms within schisms looks to me to be their future.<BR/><BR/>Anglican tolerance wont work for them, they have to be Calvinists in robes. Too bad.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62206707660003253492008-10-11T09:01:00.000-04:002008-10-11T09:01:00.000-04:00You guys are still fixated on this stuff?Why don't...You guys are still fixated on this stuff?<BR/><BR/>Why don't you just move on, do your MDG ministry and do what we are doing in the "continuing" Anglican Church - Mission.<BR/><BR/>We pray for you each and every Sunday, we have friends on the other side of the divide and are even finding ways of working with them on projects together.<BR/><BR/>So relax, enjoy your church and just look at it like a big car wreck and move on. "Nothing to look at here."<BR/><BR/>Except for an occassional venture here to see what is happening on the other side of the divide, we have moved on. We pray you can do that as well.<BR/><BR/>Peace.<BR/><BR/>Bob of FremontAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88633287453700199782008-10-11T02:46:00.000-04:002008-10-11T02:46:00.000-04:00"The North American Anglican makes it clear..."By ..."The <I>North American Anglican makes</I> it clear..."<BR/><BR/>By golly, if we can't stop the schismatics from using the term "Anglican" at all, perhaps you have stumbled upon something, Mark.<BR/><BR/>Whatever the "Global South" claims, aren't Akinola and Venebles and Orombi really <I>North-American-Anglicans</I>, at the root?<BR/><BR/>That's where the $$$$$$ comes from, that's where the ideology comes from (and w/ Minns' busy keyboard, often that's where the words come from).<BR/><BR/>The <B>Anglican Communion</B> will continue on being the blessedly messy <I>fellowship</I> it is.<BR/><BR/>The <B>North-American-Anglican Church</B> will be All (No Gays!) Dogma, All the Time (well, until the explosive egos involved---see re the above names, plus "Archbishop Duncan"?---fracture the thing from there)<BR/><BR/>Lord have mercy!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17540806533887954122008-10-10T23:00:00.000-04:002008-10-10T23:00:00.000-04:00This is an attempt to unite several smaller splint...This is an attempt to unite several smaller splinter groups into one larger splinter group. Can "LOL" mean "lots of luck"?Bob Schneiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00003468424818097261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16335889559789911842008-10-10T19:25:00.000-04:002008-10-10T19:25:00.000-04:00Hey, kirkepiscatoid, would you open that Anglican ...Hey, kirkepiscatoid, would you open that Anglican Bar and Grill here in Norwalk, Connecticut? Then I could be the priest who holds services there on Sundays. It would be a dream come true. would ya, could ya, huh, please? (And I am only half joking, seriously!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com