tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post418293958194780779..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Three resolutions on the Anglican CovenantMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-80144921853181468402012-04-18T00:04:11.020-04:002012-04-18T00:04:11.020-04:00Thank you David. Good local knowledge. grace and p...Thank you David. Good local knowledge. grace and peace<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4348958554082801612012-04-17T13:00:15.685-04:002012-04-17T13:00:15.685-04:00I like the main conversation, but also the one abo...I like the main conversation, but also the one about names. Years ago I was a lay clerk ("gentleman of the choir") at St. Mary's Episcopal Cathedral in Edinburgh. We always said Episcopal because there was a St. Mary's RC cathedral down the street! I pulled out my old Pitkin guide and it has a section vigorously entitled "English Incorrect." It goes on to say: "St. Mary's Cathedral belongs to the Scottish Episcopal Church. This is a separate and self-governing branch of the Anglican Church... Sometime it is spoken of as the "English" Church but this is incorrect and arises from the existence in Scotland during the years of persecution of a number of "Qualified Chapels" served by clergymen in English orders and using the English Book of Common Prayer. In the 19th century, these congregations joined with the Scottish Episcopalian congregations which had survived the period of the penal laws and accepted the jurisdiction of the local bishops...." The Scots have an independent streak (my mother was one), but I do remember that many in the congregation came from south of the border and everyone got along just fine.<br /><br />David QuittmeyerDavid Quittmeyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86639966872534451592012-04-17T08:28:17.712-04:002012-04-17T08:28:17.712-04:00Pompous was the assertion that TEC changed its nam...Pompous was the assertion that TEC changed its name so as to be *The* Episcopal Church and to claim that vis-à-vis others. Exposing it as fraudulent is, well, exposing it as fraudulent. <br /><br />And yes, in addition, it was also "pedantic." <br /><br />Pompous? How about "you are not The Episcopal Church".<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-10545944833433241682012-04-16T20:03:31.026-04:002012-04-16T20:03:31.026-04:00"Name-calling doesn't alter the fact. Eno...<i>"Name-calling doesn't alter the fact. Enough already."</i> You said it. Any mirrors where you live?<br /><br />Pomposity comes under pride, does it not?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-90956926062611519842012-04-15T17:18:53.406-04:002012-04-15T17:18:53.406-04:00Mark, I notice this Msgr does not have a link. Is ...Mark, I notice this Msgr does not have a link. Is he a troll? He has the bombasity of one.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53300048267354353682012-04-15T09:21:27.607-04:002012-04-15T09:21:27.607-04:00That's right, TEC changed its name from the mo...That's right, TEC changed its name from the mouthful of PECUSA so as to tell the SEC it alone was *The* Episcopal Church. You are joking?<br /><br />You'll get no argument from me that TEC thinks of itself chiefly when it does these things and does not ask if the 50K member SEC might care. But in the case of the latter, Mr Holdsworth is hardly representative. I doubt 95% of the SEC know or care. They are the Scottish Episcopal Church. They are not The Church of Scotland. That is what matters in the name.<br /><br />This is a non-issue. Name-calling doesn't alter the fact. Enough already.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-46224924575648130072012-04-14T14:47:36.360-04:002012-04-14T14:47:36.360-04:00How anxious are we to be among those who are "...<i>How anxious are we to be among those who are "still considering" the Covenant?</i><br /><br />Marshall, that is an excellent question. I've said earlier that we might want to delay a decision to stay in the game, but, as you point out, we would still be in the game if we rejected the covenant. And now that the Church of England has rejected the document, why should we not and be done with it?June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86262428802446908732012-04-14T13:51:24.039-04:002012-04-14T13:51:24.039-04:00Pomposity is not one of the seven deadly sins. Nor...Pomposity is not one of the seven deadly sins. Nor is being an ass. But they ought to be.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48021587185075198552012-04-14T12:46:50.174-04:002012-04-14T12:46:50.174-04:00Holdsworth -- a good scottish name. Give me a brea...Holdsworth -- a good scottish name. Give me a break. He's a committee of 1. <br /><br />Don't people have better things to do? Next you are going to say the Sudanese are upset.<br /><br />Tempest meet teapot. <br /><br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5405933762571239392012-04-13T22:46:08.264-04:002012-04-13T22:46:08.264-04:00You wrote
"If I have to worry about offendin...You wrote<br /><br />"If I have to worry about offending the Scots and others"<br /><br />You don't.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-76750952628792970352012-04-13T17:10:15.587-04:002012-04-13T17:10:15.587-04:00I have just received the following comment on my b...I have just received the following comment on my blog from Father Kelvin Holdsworth, provost of St. Mary's Anglican Cathedral, Glasgow.<br /><br />"It does matter and it was rude and unhelpful of the Americans to start using the name "The Episcopal Church". <br /><br />I'm reduced to calling them "The [US Based] Episcopal Church". <br /><br />Father Kelvin is very much a "words man," a new media evangelist. He understands their power.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62349465561282268132012-04-13T14:34:32.739-04:002012-04-13T14:34:32.739-04:00I think it is a completely different issue for you...I think it is a completely different issue for you from what I've been talking about. You seem to think we're talking about two churches with the same name. I'm talking about the use of the word "episcopal" with the word "the" in front.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-60542535086026924262012-04-13T09:20:13.508-04:002012-04-13T09:20:13.508-04:00To repeat: The name of the church in Scotland that...To repeat: The name of the church in Scotland that is episcopal in character is "The Scottish Episcopal Church." Its acronym is SEC. That has always been its name. Not until recently did much of anyone in the SEC think long about whether there was some confusion with a church in the United States. Very few do now. This is a non-issue.<br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64221605264518654312012-04-13T08:56:26.946-04:002012-04-13T08:56:26.946-04:00I detest using the word "protestant" in ...I detest using the word "protestant" in connection with The Episcopal Church.David and Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09545394141617985139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51823301169202261042012-04-13T04:22:10.547-04:002012-04-13T04:22:10.547-04:00The problem lies in the fact that the word "e...The problem lies in the fact that the word "episcopal" is an adjective that applies to all churches with bishops. When you chose to call yourselves The Episcopal Church you inadvertently (I hope) made a claim similar to the Roman Catholic Church calling itself the Catholic Church.<br /><br />I am ever so careful on my blog not to upset Scottish readers and avoid certain usages of words which, although technically correct, cause offence to some Scots. I think if I was a blogger in the USA I would probably always write "The Episcopal Church in the US" or just TEC (as abbreviations in common usage are read as the abbreviation).MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-19232309546938919932012-04-12T17:43:10.953-04:002012-04-12T17:43:10.953-04:00Well, if nothing else, the money in the Bauerschmi...Well, if nothing else, the money in the Bauerschmidt resolution means it is dead in the water - as well it should. The Douglas resolution is not a surprise and it may get some traction in the HOB but I think the resolution from the EC will be seen as the moderate compromise in view of the fact that there are many deputies who, like me, think the whole thing ought to be shot down and put out of its misery.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-60521088730454087912012-04-12T13:11:08.562-04:002012-04-12T13:11:08.562-04:00The Anglican Covenant is a dead issue in the after...The Anglican Covenant is a dead issue in the aftermath of its rejection by the Church of England. As your chart vividly illustrates, none of the resolutions is acceptable; spending time at General Convention debating these resolutions is pointless. Regardless of any action taken, the Anglican Communion’s unity is shattered. The Church faces more important issues that require constructive action, e.g., declining attendance and budget shortfalls.George Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18093080882083560466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48732778516008187252012-04-12T12:40:02.025-04:002012-04-12T12:40:02.025-04:00The name chosen by GC was TEC. In retrospect, give...The name chosen by GC was TEC. In retrospect, given the fact that the name of the church in Sudan and Scotland is TEC, we might should have thought of something else or a qualifier. <br /><br />On the topic, I think all three resolutions are deeply flawed. I suppose that the EC version is the least weak, but I am at a loss when I ask myself why we need to express gratitude to those who performed so badly. It seems to me that something a lot shorter and more direct is called for. <br /><br />The quick and easy approach, embodied in these drafts, suggests a horribly badly done history, and a remarkably weak theological statement (sections 1 and 2) are OK. Then sections 3 and 4 are not ready for prime time. These propose a weak and inappropriate response. They read like: your essay gets an F, but because you spent a lot of time doing it very badly, getting all the facts wrong, let me make it an F+. <br /><br />FWIW<br /><a href="http://essaysbyjim.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">jimB</a><br />Member:No Anglican Covenant CoalitionJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34950213608219458672012-04-12T09:17:34.791-04:002012-04-12T09:17:34.791-04:00I do not like the phrase, "With all due respe...I do not like the phrase, "With all due respect...", because it really means "With no respect at all towards...", and therefore, I shall not use it. I respect my bishop, Ian, and have absolutely no respect for the Covenant whatsoever. Down with it, I say.Lois Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13708877817422097051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5247396687144317202012-04-12T08:57:11.559-04:002012-04-12T08:57:11.559-04:00No one in Scotland who belongs to the Scottish Epi...No one in Scotland who belongs to the Scottish Episcopal Church refers to it as 'The Episcopal Church.' Those in Scotland who are members of the Church of Scotland, and the general public, frequently refer to it as 'The English Church' (much to the consternation of some non-English background Scots). <br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3940370510172743432012-04-12T07:23:57.661-04:002012-04-12T07:23:57.661-04:00For no other reason than I had just been reading o...For no other reason than I had just been reading one of Father Dougal's posts. He is a priest in the Scottish Episcopal Church. Living so near to the Scottish border and respectful of Scotland's separate nationhood, I am always careful not to downsize them in any way.<br /><br />The train is moving slowly. But yesterday I received some excellent advice from Doctor Dennis, the eminent Detroit psychologist and mutual acquaintance, that I will follow to the letter with the hope of better things to come. It was free advice, as well, which has to be a first for his profession.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40636087144254873732012-04-12T07:23:25.943-04:002012-04-12T07:23:25.943-04:00MadPriest,
It’s fine to say what the name of the ...MadPriest,<br /><br />It’s fine to say what the name of the American church <i>should</i> be. The official name(s), however, is set forth in the Constitution of the General Convention: “The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, otherwise known as The Episcopal Church (which name is hereby<br />recognized as also designating the Church) ... .” “The Episcopal Church” works fine in the U.S., but it is problematic internationally. Prior to 2006, the church was frequently referred to as “ECUSA” (i.e., “Episcopal Church in the United States of America”). Episcopal News Service (or whoever was telling ENS what to do) suddenly decided that we should only use “The Episcopal Church” or “TEC.” (ENS eventually quietly droped the capitalization of “the.”) The current Presiding Bishop is particularly fond of reminding everyone that TEC exists in a number of countries and is therefore neither strictly a U.S. or American affair.<br /><br />So, in the end, although I’m sympathetic to your complaint, I don’t know what to do about it.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58055397759827180632012-04-12T07:12:36.897-04:002012-04-12T07:12:36.897-04:00Esteemed Mad...you are not pedantic, and you are r...Esteemed Mad...you are not pedantic, and you are right. "The Episcopal Church" reads well in the US and in the dioceses of TEC that are not part of the USA, but reads precisely as cultural imperialism. The problem is "The Episcopal Church ....what? I mostly like The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America - its still official name. We are an Episcopal church, reformed through the protestant reformation, in the United States of America. That makes every overseas diocese understand that they start here, but they become Episcopal Churches where they are as they develop into self-sustaining entities. <br /><br />At the same time it is easier, and well understood here, to say I belong to the Episcopal Church, meaning the PECUSA. <br /><br />So why did you use this essay to bring this up? What was the trigger?<br /><br />How is your train doing? I've been away from the computer for some days and only now know of your effort to get this ministry going full blast.<br /><br />I intend to contribute. Hope others will. <br /><br />Feel free to make a plug in the comments here.<br /><br />Regards, MMark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77419848298362906842012-04-12T06:27:17.470-04:002012-04-12T06:27:17.470-04:00Sorry to be pedantic, Mark, but you are not The Ep...Sorry to be pedantic, Mark, but you are not The Episcopal Church. You are an episcopal church. You are only AN episcopal church within the Anglican Communion. If I have to worry about offending the Scots and others, you should have to as well :-)<br /><br />Anyway, I have long campaigned for the changing of "Anglican" to "Episcopal" and I don't want the rest of the world put off this idea by relating the word "episcopal" only to the USA. That would be just replacing English cultural imperialism with US American cultural imperialism.<br /><br />The Episcopal Church of the USA will do fine.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43958231443659140522012-04-11T19:19:34.706-04:002012-04-11T19:19:34.706-04:00Mark, thank you for pointing out my reporting erro...Mark, thank you for pointing out my reporting error regarding the language from the task force.<br /><br />I will correct it right away.<br /><br />Doug LeBlanc<br />News Editor, TLCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com