tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post4232961544977853103..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Flying below the radar: Anglican Church in North America activities.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50626517382971794812009-01-10T13:11:00.000-05:002009-01-10T13:11:00.000-05:00Counterlight, I don't take up much space on this b...Counterlight, I don't take up much space on this blog. For that matter, I didn't comment on this thread until my name was put into the conversation by somebody else. As to the rest, the feeling is mutual.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81474719380139517852009-01-10T11:38:00.000-05:002009-01-10T11:38:00.000-05:00Phil is not dangerous, just tiresome.All would be ...Phil is not dangerous, just tiresome.<BR/><BR/>All would be happier if he'd just start his own blog where he can say all he wants to say as much as he wants without taking up so much space on this blog, same as the rest of us.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-7987400606445115392009-01-10T00:53:00.000-05:002009-01-10T00:53:00.000-05:00those remaining in the Anglican mainstream, though...<I>those remaining in the Anglican mainstream, though now ghettoized (some by their own choice, I grant you), care as much as you about the institution.</I><BR/><BR/>And about the people . . . not at all.<BR/><BR/>You are dangerous, Phil, you and those like you, and that's why we want you to leave us alone. Like those who've escaped from an abusive spouse, we don't want that abusive spouse coming around to beat on us any longer. We can't trust you, there's no love from you, you insist on continuing to hurt us, so we want you away from us. There's no reasoning with you, no mediation, no nothing. <BR/><BR/>If we could get restraining orders, we would.<BR/><BR/>Clear enough?<BR/><BR/>The big difference here is that we tend to hover around abusing you on the blogs friendly to your side than you do on those friendly to ours.<BR/><BR/>If you're leaving, leave. We've already told you you have nothing to offer and your worldview is deluded.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40770320967114248102009-01-09T12:04:00.000-05:002009-01-09T12:04:00.000-05:00Phil, Allen, and Observer, If the Episcopal Church...<I>Phil, Allen, and Observer, If the Episcopal Church is so loathsome, then why do you spend so much time and energy bashing it?</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed. Come on - <I>you</I> guys broke up with us! Stop driving by our house all the time. Stop drunk-dialing us at 3 AM. <BR/><BR/>It's just sad. Please go get a life...Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69285885356433081012009-01-09T10:08:00.000-05:002009-01-09T10:08:00.000-05:00Grandmère, I would like to see ECUSA be a strong, ...Grandmère, I would like to see ECUSA be a strong, vibrant and growing witness for Christ and His Gospel, and so I will reserve the right to criticize it when I feel it is pursuing policies detrimental to that goal.<BR/><BR/>With respect, the Episcopal Church is not yours alone, and those remaining in the Anglican mainstream, though now ghettoized (some by their own choice, I grant you), care as much as you about the institution. I note that you and most others on your side of the ideological aisle have no compunction about directing fire at people and bodies with whom/which you disagree; it isn’t clear to me why ECUSA, in contrast, merits special “hands off” treatment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24622610108417289322009-01-09T00:17:00.000-05:002009-01-09T00:17:00.000-05:00Mimi, I've known Mark Harris since 1986, so this c...Mimi, I've known Mark Harris since 1986, so this comes from one who knows: Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. When you meet him in person, his handsome face will absolutely steal your heart away. If that doesn't do it, his intellect will. <BR/><BR/>Okay Mark - I think I've earned my remuneration this month. See you next Thursday in Easton, my love.<BR/><BR/>(The Word Verification is: Conepig. I wonder if that's Northern or Southern?)Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5012727501108511002009-01-08T23:00:00.000-05:002009-01-08T23:00:00.000-05:00"How inclusive of you. Perhaps the Christmas spiri..."How inclusive of you. Perhaps the Christmas spirit has already been packed away, along with the ornaments?"<BR/><BR/>Ya know Phil, I just knew you were going to say something like that in just those very words. You're as predictable as the sunrise.<BR/><BR/>In all Christian charity,<BR/>Get your own damn blog.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-35658805731391293062009-01-08T14:22:00.000-05:002009-01-08T14:22:00.000-05:00I suppose those who split off can call themselves ...I suppose those who split off can call themselves whatever they like, but, as of now, there is no Anglican Church, despite what Bp. Minns says and despite what Canterbury sometimes mistakenly references.<BR/><BR/><I>Until ECUSA demonstrates it can consistently and significantly grow, the point will not be a “tired” one.</I><BR/><BR/>Phil, why do you care? <BR/><BR/><I>Mark, but I'll tell you that you are a scary person more than you know.</I><BR/><BR/>Allen, I don't know. Mark doesn't scare me.<BR/><BR/>Mark, I hope my words don't offend you. Should I be scared?June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85628171353954681082009-01-08T12:16:00.000-05:002009-01-08T12:16:00.000-05:00Observer, are you in need of a case of toilet tis...Observer, are you in need of a case of toilet tissue for that dysentery?<BR/><BR/>Just one example of the lies that you perpetuate as fact -<BR/><I>IT [GAFCON] HAPPENED! It was bigger and <B>more representative of global Anglicanism than Lambeth</B> BECAUSE the ABC invited TECUSA and AoC</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps you are not aware that this is not true, and so you are not aware that you are perpetuating a lie. GAFCON, by their own admission was <B>not</B> representative of global Anglicanism. (As was admitted to me, and all of the rest of us, here on this very blog, by Obadiahslate, when I challenged him on the same lie.)<BR/><BR/>GAFCON was almost entirely North American Orthodites of various flavors and African Orthodites, with a tiny, tiny representation of Orthodites from the British Isles, South Asia/Oceania and the Southern Cone.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15453551880717039672009-01-08T11:45:00.000-05:002009-01-08T11:45:00.000-05:00Counterlight,How inclusive of you. Perhaps the Ch...Counterlight,<BR/><BR/>How inclusive of you. Perhaps the Christmas spirit has already been packed away, along with the ornaments?<BR/><BR/>Cordially,<BR/><BR/>PhilAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34022885398803685372009-01-08T10:52:00.000-05:002009-01-08T10:52:00.000-05:00Mark, it's gotten so that it's hard to tell the co...Mark, it's gotten so that it's hard to tell the comments section of your blog apart from the one over at Stand Firm.<BR/><BR/>Either way, one gets to see little besides the same old embittered fundamentalists repeating the same old slanders.<BR/><BR/>Not very edifying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68849577284938409862009-01-08T10:02:00.000-05:002009-01-08T10:02:00.000-05:00One of the phenomena that we can observe in the co...One of the phenomena that we can observe in the conduct of bullies, is the shifting line in the sand. So now, Observer tells us, the line in the sand is the next Primates' Meeting. Anyone who has paid any attention over the last few years knows that body is not jurisdictional, that our PB does not in her own right have authority to commit the church, and that at the most what will happen is that a 'final draft' will appear <I>for discussion.</I> <BR/><BR/>The bullies' need to stampede us however, will lead to this latest line in the sand being the grand moment in time at which we<B> must obey </B>them. When nothing happens, like all bullies they are at core cowards so they will draw another line. I am predicting said line will be the resolutions on B033 at GC.<BR/><BR/>It is all so predictable and sad. If they want to leave, what holds them? Oh, they want our respect and validation and all we offer is love and pity.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBeJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-19112308917043930902009-01-08T08:30:00.000-05:002009-01-08T08:30:00.000-05:00Phil, Allen, and Observer,If the Episcopal Church ...Phil, Allen, and Observer,<BR/><BR/>If the Episcopal Church is so loathsome, then why do you spend so much time and energy bashing it? Why do you return here repeatedly and predictably, and always with the same result?<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that it is long past time to go start a new life somewhere else -- or start your own blogs instead of taking up so much space on this one.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53096131882945807712009-01-08T02:38:00.000-05:002009-01-08T02:38:00.000-05:00David - what lies? You say, "Observer, Phil and ...David - what lies? You say, "Observer, Phil and BR continue to make rounds of progressive Anglican blogs and repeat ad nausiem these same tired lies" What lies? Hope you are not bearing false witness. I guess you don't mind the lie which claims 2.2m members for TECUSA when it gets just 0.7m, that is 0.26% of the US population (and those are mostly getting a pension - where are the millions of young, intelligent Americans drawn to TECUSA's great "new thing"??) Is Scientology bigger than TECUSA??? <BR/><BR/><BR/>You guys know that there is no salvation in the name of the ABC? Of course GAFCON does not have to have his blessing.....IT HAPPENED! It was bigger and more representative of global Anglicanism than Lambeth BECAUSE the ABC invited TECUSA and AoC.....I bet he regrets that - but maybe he wanted to see just how strong feeling in the AC was.....now he knows and I think he was surprised. Still, he drives the AC covenant forward....and dares TECUSA to reject it.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, let's see if TECUSA shows integrity or unprincipled political compromise when dealing with BO33 and the AC covenant.......but the ABC knows (post GAFCON) that most of the AC ain't willig to play the word games which worked for Griswold et al in the past...... sorry TECUSA, you are living in a post-GAFCON world and you are clearly failing to attract many Americans....your "new thing" credibility is low in the AC.<BR/><BR/>By the way - if TECUSA is so great etc, why isn't Obama getting Mrs Schori to do the prayers on his big day? Even the political progressives in the US don't respect TEUCSA much....obviously.<BR/><BR/>But, in the end, TECUSA desperately needs the AC for the global stage on which to buy a voice given it is so irrelevant in the US....so I expect unprincipled, political compromise from TECUSA re BO33 and the AC covenant.....it is the way of TECUSA in recent years, sadly - but GAFCON has moved on and Rowan knows it......he is going to make a choice, he has to ultimately....and I do not think he wants to be the ABC which led the AC to become a small, shrinking, Western, liberal sect.....if he does, it matters little to GAFCON - they have proven that in 08Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-38993870959824526092009-01-08T00:12:00.000-05:002009-01-08T00:12:00.000-05:00observer,Well, in a well documented article in The...observer,<BR/>Well, in a well documented article in The Atlantic Monthly multiple Nigerian Bishops (including Akinola) espouse violence against Muslims. Mr. John David Schofield closed a mission with no cause and sold the property in order to finance his campaign of theft. TEC Diocese of San Joaquin funds have been sent directly to the Archbishop Venables. Many ex bishops have broken solemn vows once taken in front of both God and friends. Mr. Minns expects LGBT people to commit psychological suicide before they can come into HIS church. <BR/>Observer, what else do you need?Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-71512189262235174162009-01-07T15:20:00.000-05:002009-01-07T15:20:00.000-05:00Feel free to avoid printing this one too, Mark, bu...Feel free to avoid printing this one too, Mark, but I'll tell you that you are a scary person more than you know.<BR/><BR/>You claimed that the dissenters in TEC were a trickle amounting to nearly nothing, and an acceptable loss to an otherwise solid TEC. Now you keep spending your time wondering what "they" are up to.<BR/><BR/>Why does it matter? You dismissed these people a long time ago. Lowering "them" certainly doesn't raise you, the Executive Committee, or the PB's splintering Church one inch. But, lowering them you do. Certainly takes your mind off of how to fix the Church that you ARE in charge of, though, doesn't it? Isn't that a psychological issue? Should be scary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-56305783277148375422009-01-07T15:09:00.000-05:002009-01-07T15:09:00.000-05:00David,I’m not sure I’m the “Phil” to which you’re ...David,<BR/><BR/>I’m not sure I’m the “Phil” to which you’re referring, but, as I do “make the rounds” of progressive blogs – just in case –<BR/><BR/>1. I certainly have, on occasion, made the argument that ECUSA’s membership decline is a problem. On the other hand, so has more than one ECUSA institutionalist. The point seems virtually inarguable, unless your argument is that ECUSA is in business to shrink.<BR/><BR/>2. The point in #1, which is, again, shared by many ECUSA loyalists, is hardly a staple of my commenting, here or elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>3. Even if it were my core theme, it’s an opinion, and so doesn’t fall under the definition of “lies.”<BR/><BR/>4. Until ECUSA demonstrates it can consistently and significantly grow, the point will not be a “tired” one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-71453319775366582802009-01-07T14:34:00.000-05:002009-01-07T14:34:00.000-05:00Goodness me - I'm sure Duncan would consider me a ...Goodness me - I'm sure Duncan would consider me a raving progressive heretic, but I'm sure I've never talked about myself in such a way in any sermon - much less one for Christmas! Martin Luther, indeed. What arrogant, narcissistic bombast.<BR/><BR/>Mr. ArabinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51200081232098102802009-01-07T12:29:00.000-05:002009-01-07T12:29:00.000-05:00remember they do not need the ABC, ObserverSo the...remember they do not need the ABC, Observer<BR/><BR/>So the bandits continue to attempt to instigate their ¨hold up¨ campaign at the Anglican Communion? I think the ABC and everyone else has seen enough to know that the selfproclaimed righteous need keep a focus on the dismal and corrupt political, cultural and religious affairs at home in Nigeria, Uganda, Kenya, Sudan, Zimbabwe and Niger Delta...massacres such as Yelwa and Jos are hardly a reflection of the Good News that follows when some religious folk preach of their purity.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6827801123288007302009-01-07T12:22:00.000-05:002009-01-07T12:22:00.000-05:00Huv should know that Antiochian Village is used by...Huv should know that Antiochian Village is used by Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Churches, and ecumenical entities, and has been for more than 20 years.wlh1933https://www.blogger.com/profile/05585186226768969618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22287340320822088002009-01-07T12:00:00.000-05:002009-01-07T12:00:00.000-05:00Oh dear - you mean we have all of January and part...Oh dear - you mean we have all of January and part of February before "the next big media event"? This means nothing but an opportunity for mischief and mayhem on the 'orthodite' blogs. They'll be trolling progressive blogs and supermarket mags, looking for something to hold up as target practice or bait to feed the circling sharks.<BR/><BR/>The British have a very quaint saying in times like these: "Keep your pecker up!" (Pecker = chin)<BR/><BR/>Let's let them fly under or over or wherever they wish, delude themselves with grandiosity, and we'll just keep on doing the work of Jesus the way we know how and to the best of our ability.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68567380957557994292009-01-07T11:59:00.000-05:002009-01-07T11:59:00.000-05:00I was not aware that using peyote was part of ACNA...I was not aware that using peyote was part of ACNA's liturgical/spiritual practice, but surely Observer is smoking something hallucinogenic!<BR/><BR/>How, pray tell, could such a sign-it-or-leave show down be in the making for the Primates Meeting?!? There is no Covenant! There is a draft proposal, nothing more. And there are plenty of other provinces that are not convinced about the edification or usefulness of an Anglican Covenant, and all the extra baggage it would entail for the Communion.<BR/><BR/>Observer, Phil and BR continue to make rounds of progressive Anglican blogs and repeat ad nausiem these same tired lies about the importance of numbers and who really needs who, etc., etc., etc.<BR/><BR/>::snore::Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33011582263753153982009-01-07T09:48:00.000-05:002009-01-07T09:48:00.000-05:00Metropolitan Jonah (Paffhausen) is the newly elect...Metropolitan Jonah (Paffhausen) is the newly elected head of the Orthodox Church in America (aka OCA) - just one of a dozen or so jurisdictions in N. America. He is actually a friendly-faced neocon, and was raised Episcopalian. Jonah has given encouragement to schismatic Episcopalians. As you know married priests are normative in Orthodoxy, but married bishops won't fly in any branch of the Orthodox Church. Additionally, like Rome, they do *not* recognize Anglican orders. <BR/>Jonah has a huge mess of his own to deal with in the OCA, huge financial embezzlement and major corruption under the two previous Metropolitans; see: www.ocanews.org <BR/><BR/>They, like the Greek Archdiocese and others, are also trying to keep a lid on their clergy sexual abuse scandals. <BR/><BR/>See www.pokrov.org <BR/><BR/>The Orthodox have been lucky enough to fly under the radar of media scrutiny (unlike the Romans); God help them if the lid ever gets blown off that simmering kettle of s*@t. <BR/><BR/>former OCA, now in the Dio. of SpfldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48598935514753406282009-01-07T09:27:00.000-05:002009-01-07T09:27:00.000-05:00There's an interview with +Minns on Christian Toda...There's an interview with +Minns on Christian Today where he talks a bit about ACNA.<BR/><BR/>He still somehow thinks one can be a member of the Anglican Communion without the recognition of Canterbury:<BR/><BR/><I>"CP: Has the Archbishop of Canterbury offered any recognition of CANA (Convocation of Anglicans in North America) and your position as missionary bishop?<BR/><BR/>Minns: Not any formal recognition. But then again, we are part of the Church of Nigeria so in that sense, his recognition isn’t strictly necessary."</I><BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/><I>"CP: How important is it for this new structure to be recognised by the Archbishop of Canterbury? Some say without recognition, it’s not following Anglican tradition. <BR/><BR/>Minns: I think part of the problem right now is that the Anglican Church is a global church. It started as an outgrowth of England. But in that sense, I think we’re not post-colonial. We’ve now past that whole colonial era. So I think what we’re looking for is a structure that reflects that where there’s genuine authority given to people other than the Archbishop of Canterbury. For example, the primate of the Church of Nigeria, there’s 20 million members there. It’s a far bigger province than any other province. The idea somehow that he has to ask permission from the Archbishop of Canterbury to do anything is a bit silly. It’s also a bit of the old colonial mindset. So I think there’s need for some new structures. And I think that’s what we hope will come out of this. We’re an international church and yet right now the leadership still looks like the old British Empire. So that needs to change."</I><BR/><BR/>Um, perhaps someone forgot to tell +Minns that there is no 'Anglican Church'; there is an Anglican Communion of Provincial Churches, a very different thing.<BR/><BR/>As for numbers in the new 'province', he has again inflated the no. of churches to up to 800! (the current 'official'figure is c.650). At least he no longer claims the 100,000 as ASA, but merely as total membership; although by saying 'within the various Common Cause Partners' is he including those ACN, AAC, FiF members who remain in TEC?:<BR/><BR/><I>"CP: And how many would be a part of that new province?<BR/><BR/>Minns: I think 700 to 800 churches would be a part of that and we estimated somewhere around 100,000 people are presently within the various Common Cause Partners."</I><BR/><BR/>http://www.christiantoday.com/article/rifts.and.reconciliation.in.north.america/22258.htm<BR/><BR/>MJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66583355613070574822009-01-07T09:11:00.000-05:002009-01-07T09:11:00.000-05:00Fred - not sure who the horrible people you descri...Fred - not sure who the horrible people you describe are....surely it cannot be mild mannered Anglicans who stick to what our bishops say re scripture's teaching on moral issues?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com