tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post4234771836700458258..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: They Suffer Least: A note on Bishop Duncan's deposition.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62872768952246006332008-10-01T15:22:00.000-04:002008-10-01T15:22:00.000-04:00"None of the Above" as a religous choice? Makes a..."None of the Above" as a religous choice? Makes a lot of sense to me!Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58452018738843305152008-10-01T02:15:00.000-04:002008-10-01T02:15:00.000-04:00lynn, my previous comment was mostly fueled by gui...lynn, my previous comment was mostly fueled by guilty knowledge, or maybe just plain guilt. I could be the poster child for religious consumerism. I seem to be in remission now, however.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83536949177182816272008-09-30T23:08:00.000-04:002008-09-30T23:08:00.000-04:00BillyD,Generally, I think there is a case for leav...BillyD,<BR/><BR/>Generally, I think there is a case for leaving or staying, it depends on the individual. Dan Martins often blogs about his dislike of our lay-drive polity, lack of central authority, and the inherent tension of <I>via media.</I> TEC's structure of governance was established at "birth," after the Revolutionary War. And of course the Elizabethan Settlement signaled the birth of the Anglican way. Dan's bio indicates he wasn't raised in the Episcopal church, and he often speaks of the tug of Rome. A lot of issues, particularly for a parish priest.<BR/><BR/>Playing devil's advocate (in a rhetorical sense, of course) - the Reformation clearly established the concept of religious consumerism. The church of your baptism was selected by your family, and may be a bad choice for many. I made a thoughtful decision to become a Methodist as a young woman, and then another to return to TEC in my mid-40s. My life changed, but the entire church wasn't required to change with me.<BR/><BR/>And we must remember - there is very little societal pressure to attend church, period. I say, go where God leads you. The revolving door/consumerism mentality can only be stopped by requiring a thoughtful period of education and discernment at each individual church.Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09748809418423591030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-76463206348384945052008-09-30T14:11:00.000-04:002008-09-30T14:11:00.000-04:00Dah-veed wrote:Recently I encountered your methods...Dah-veed wrote:<BR/><I>Recently I encountered your methods explained while visiting another blog. In Narrative Techniques of Fear Mongering by Barry Glassner, he describes the techniques fear mongers use;<BR/>1. repetition<BR/>2. the depiction of isolated incidents as trends<BR/>3. misdirection</I><BR/><BR/>That's one of my main gripes about the so-called argumentation presented by "conservatives" in our little brouhaha - the mindlessly consistent use of logical fallacies. To wit:<BR/><BR/>1. repetition. <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_repetition" REL="nofollow">Argumentum ad nauseam</A>.<BR/>2. the depiction of isolated incidents as trends. <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization" REL="nofollow">Hasty Induction</A>.<BR/>3. misdirection. Various <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlative-based_fallacies" REL="nofollow">Correlative-based fallacies</A>.<BR/><BR/>Allen, you do your side no justice by resorting to such poor reasoning.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-10061259157070242852008-09-30T09:51:00.000-04:002008-09-30T09:51:00.000-04:00When your faith community does not bolster your fa...<I>When your faith community does not bolster your faith, you should leave.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I agree with that, and I think it's what I've heard preached against as "religious consumerism." Maybe when things are wrong in your faith community it's your duty to stay, anyway.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5735390035500875692008-09-30T02:48:00.000-04:002008-09-30T02:48:00.000-04:00Why should the AC recoginze Gene Robinson's episco...<I>Why should the AC recoginze Gene Robinson's episcopacy? Because a majority of the voters at NH's annual convention wanted him.</I><BR/><BR/>Dan, this is how we select bishops in the Episcopal Church. Yes, we ask that Bishop Robinson be recognized, just as we recognize those from other provinces that are not selected in other ways.<BR/><BR/>Our lines of authority, checks and balances, and combination of lay/ordained leadership is what it is. You knew this when you took your ordination vows. I know that last sentence sounds snippy, but you honestly don't seem to care for the reality of TEC.<BR/><BR/>I know TEC has changed in many ways. But it's alive again! Cranky, but alive. This from a cradle Piskie who left and came back home. I see the church of my childhood again...and yes, plenty of children in my church.<BR/><BR/>It's true what they say, Dan. The door is always open, and it swings both ways. When your faith community does not bolster your faith, you should leave. And you are always welcome back.Lynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09748809418423591030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18036819639345674332008-09-30T00:13:00.000-04:002008-09-30T00:13:00.000-04:00And yet, the Reasserters are asking us to give in ...And yet, the Reasserters are asking us to give in to the majority!<BR/><BR/>"The rest of the AC . . . " we hear. "Most Christians . . . " we hear. It seems that we are supposed to regard belief as a popularity contest when it suits the allegedly-orthodox.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Fred,<BR/><BR/>You show great humility in your apology to Mark Harris. <BR/><BR/>In truth, I regard there as being a great difference between someone whose avowed purpose is to annoy, antagonize and act as a "contrarian" to a community, and someone who uses the term "asses" about someone purposefully antagonizing him.<BR/><BR/>Of course, it seems, once again, discrimination is suspended when it involves the "orthodox."MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88258686966848489552008-09-29T20:43:00.000-04:002008-09-29T20:43:00.000-04:00Mark,I apologize to whoever anonymous is for the l...Mark,<BR/>I apologize to whoever anonymous is for the language that I used. I apologize to you, it is your blog and I appreciate the fact you allowed me to use that language. I will not do that again. Frustration built up on some of the "arguments" being made as they have been made in many places. It is your home and I will faithfully abide by your rules.<BR/><BR/>Peace +Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40633306086435359092008-09-29T15:20:00.000-04:002008-09-29T15:20:00.000-04:00Fred, I DO expect you to take mini-churches seriou...Fred, I DO expect you to take mini-churches seriously, but not because of their numbers, because of the their faithful witness, as in your two examples, often under trying circumstances.<BR/><BR/>BTW, most clergy already wear vestments of cotton/wool and synthetic blends. They do not have to be ironed. When traveling, just hang them in the bathroom and the steam from showering makes the wrinkles and creases fall out.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-10708029895953588442008-09-29T13:15:00.000-04:002008-09-29T13:15:00.000-04:00OK gang...heads up: the famous "anonymous" comment...OK gang...heads up: the famous "anonymous" comments keep coming, some good some bad, some from one person, some from another. As of now, no anonymous comments will be posted. You don't have to use your own name, you don't have to use a consistent name (although on a thread that is helpful). But you have to use some name.<BR/><BR/>And Allen wrote, "It has been noted that my comments are often annoying. You note in the heat of such comments that "snit" time is alomost up. However, I do not see you getting your ire up about "schwartz's" "asses" and "fools" comment.<BR/><BR/>I may be annoying but I do not lower others by name-calling. Why the free pass on this gutter language and "fools" slap to thousands of Episcopalians who disagree with a position that you (and others) are more sympathetic towards?"<BR/><BR/>Allen...there are all sorts of name calling that goes on in the comments. I don't take many of them off line. There are name callers from the left and the right. There it is.<BR/><BR/>I have several times suggested to you that you need to get your own blog. Maybe you have one. Let us know.<BR/><BR/>Take heart, you are not the only one who gets near the edge. Mr Anonymous is there, as are several other notables.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24110787392104017782008-09-29T11:17:00.000-04:002008-09-29T11:17:00.000-04:00(Dan)It is quite amusing to hear TEC apologists ex...(Dan)<BR/>It is quite amusing to hear TEC apologists explain why numbers don't matter. It is numbers and only numbers that govern your entire polity. As an example, a majority of deputies to GC determine doctrine and discipline. Why should the AC recoginze Gene Robinson's episcopacy? Because a majority of the voters at NH's annual convention wanted him. Numbers count for everything in TEC except when it is inconvenient to have them count at all. No one could make this stuff up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15982242334893018752008-09-29T10:17:00.000-04:002008-09-29T10:17:00.000-04:00Fr. Mark Harris:It has been noted that my comments...Fr. Mark Harris:<BR/><BR/>It has been noted that my comments are often annoying. You note in the heat of such comments that "snit" time is alomost up. However, I do not see you getting your ire up about "schwartz's" "asses" and "fools" comment. <BR/><BR/>I may be annoying but I do not lower others by name-calling. Why the free pass on this gutter language and "fools" slap to thousands of Episcopalians who disagree with a position that you (and others) are more sympathetic towards?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86119929796291860922008-09-29T09:56:00.000-04:002008-09-29T09:56:00.000-04:00Allen - have you not heard that "listening" is on...Allen - have you not heard that "listening" is only supposed to be a one way "process" and it is fine in "ilberal" circles to censor out those who are not in favour of the "new thing" etc?<BR/><BR/>You're expecting a fair hearing and people to look at the evidence of what is going on in the AC out TEC..... but you ain't going to get that from some supposed "liberals" - but then, the "Left" has always had a very authoritarian streak about it (eg whether you look at Russian communists or German "national socialists" of last century"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2364479073267527032008-09-28T22:34:00.000-04:002008-09-28T22:34:00.000-04:00For the simple minded asses of the world (and this...For the simple minded asses of the world (and this posting) the citing of numbers as an argument for truth is a logical fallacy. The fact that one or one billion believe something does not make it true. The fact that 20,000 or 50,00 follow Bob Duncan does not make Bob Duncan anything other than a person that has 50,000 fools for followers. You can take that s**t and peddle it somewhere else, the Epsicopal Church is beyond foolish, simple-minded bafoons.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84104471872953413022008-09-28T21:48:00.000-04:002008-09-28T21:48:00.000-04:00In all the back and forth over denominational numb...In all the back and forth over denominational numbers, The whole numbers-through-the-door-and-bums-in-the-pews school of success reminds of a long past Soviet leader who once said to the USA, "We will bury you!"<BR/>How did that work out?<BR/><BR/>We should also remember that the fastest growing single denomination in the USA these days is "None of the Above."<BR/><BR/>The right wing megachurches may have capacious entrances, but they have equally large exits. The always reliably right Southern Baptist Church now has terrible membership retention problems, especially among the young. Rome has had these problems for years. The Episcopal Church may or may not have declining membership, but the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York is closing down and consolidating parishes all over town, and has been doing so for many years.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-47192256441225776162008-09-28T16:29:00.000-04:002008-09-28T16:29:00.000-04:00Sacrifice? Martyrdom? You mean the deposed bisho...Sacrifice? Martyrdom? You mean the deposed bishops will be forced to wear non-natural fibers? <BR/> Shudderr............Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-74540701741549874732008-09-28T16:28:00.000-04:002008-09-28T16:28:00.000-04:00OK, Dah-Veed, I'm relieved now; you DON'T expect m...OK, Dah-Veed, I'm relieved now; you DON'T expect me to take mini-churches like Cuba or Myanmar seriously.<BR/> Whew.<BR/> Thanks-I can be a bit thick, it's true.<BR/> WSJM is correct-split up now and save yourselves time, trouble and lawyers fees. Radio, TV, clothing, cars, schools, foods, entertainment/leisure are all 'statements' of preference, class status/aspiration or taste. Why not religion? It only makes sense that the Episcopal church becomes "NPR/Patagonia at prayer".Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25375354728650158002008-09-28T14:20:00.000-04:002008-09-28T14:20:00.000-04:00Fred Preuss, because you are new here, I suggest t...Fred Preuss, because you are new here, I suggest that in your rush to get in here and spread turmoil and tension, you might stop a moment and let the silt obscuring your view settle to the bottom. Then through what has now become clear you might better see tongue-in-cheek statements.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50543190060498294832008-09-28T13:56:00.000-04:002008-09-28T13:56:00.000-04:00Of course numbers are just numbers and who cares a...<I>Of course numbers are just numbers and who cares about numbers? Oh wait, I almost forgot. Each of those numbers is a soul and lest I am badly informed, God does care about souls. But heck - after all, they are only numbers.</I><BR/><BR/>You would have a stronger argument if we believed that <I>extra Ecclesiam Anglicanam nulla salus</I>. As it happens, we don't.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34387189741833367722008-09-28T09:46:00.000-04:002008-09-28T09:46:00.000-04:00(Dan)Of course numbers are just numbers and who ca...(Dan)<BR/>Of course numbers are just numbers and who cares about numbers? Oh wait, I almost forgot. Each of those numbers is a soul and lest I am badly informed, God does care about souls. But heck - after all, they are only numbers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51946090193538804692008-09-27T23:56:00.000-04:002008-09-27T23:56:00.000-04:00Allen and RB,Bob Duncan has been deposed. David S...Allen and RB,<BR/><BR/>Bob Duncan has been deposed. David Schofield has been Deposed. The only thing that the Episcopal church did earlier that was wrong was to consecrate these two arrogant, bull-headed, misogynst, ego-maniacal people bishops. <BR/>You are correct, if we had done a few consecrations different 20 or more years ago we would not be in the trouble we are today.<BR/><BR/>BTW, we can all count. To the best of my ability, and I have been through at least three post-graduate statistics courses, numbers are neither right nor wrong, they are just numbers.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-65038180763661670132008-09-27T16:26:00.000-04:002008-09-27T16:26:00.000-04:00nlnh:Among Mark's comments-"In his constant return...nlnh:<BR/><BR/>Among Mark's comments-<BR/>"In his constant returning to the phrase, “the faith once delivered,” and his touting the actions he is engaged in as part of a “new reformation” I find his reasoning shallow and his projections of a new Anglicanism either false or simply depressing". <BR/><BR/>I guess that it is depressing to note that many more in the Anglican world than expected are moving on without TEC. That's part of this discussion, aside from the strained martyrdom comments by Ruth Gledhill. I just want some other bloggers to start doing more honest math and then comment on how things could've been, and should've been about reconciliation. Folks: we are LOSING nearly 50,000 people by the end of the year!!! Bob Duncan is gone. The problems that created Bob Duncan, Dar es Salaam, Windsor, and the Anglican Covenant, etc., etc., etc. all point back to the innovators of North America who keep blaming "reactionaries" who get sick of the failed trends. My point is that we lack leadership in TEC to truly reconcile because "via media" no longer means common ground on catholic-reformed theology and practice. Via media has been co-opted to mean blending any combination of ideas and baptizing them as holy.<BR/><BR/>You call these realities "crap". Since people are part of these trends and failures I choose to believe that it's about failed stewardship by those left in charge of God's household (and I'm not just talking about guarding candlesticks).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63793604277606123292008-09-27T16:23:00.000-04:002008-09-27T16:23:00.000-04:00Grezt post, Mark!I think this sums up him creating...Grezt post, Mark!<BR/><BR/>I think this sums up him creating his own destiny, your words: "Bishop Duncan suffered what he chose."<BR/><BR/>Yup, yup.<BR/><BR/><B>Fred</B>, you and I think so much alike! This from you is exactly what I have been thinking through this last year, as well: "When good guys and bad guys "fight" the good guys lose because good guys play by the rules and bad guys have no rules." <BR/><BR/>As many have surmised here and in other places, we need to do a better job through the discernment process for clergy. Why? Because TEC is what it is... and we are not Donatists, or Baptists, or Methodists. We are Episcopalians who have long honored difference in our church without stomping out the door, candlesticks in hand.<BR/><BR/>Yes there is room for a diverse amount of belief, but there is not room for those that undermine the big tent by walking a straight line that allows no others on it (literally and figuratively).<BR/><BR/>I could draw political analogies to this, but won't. They should be obvious, though.Canyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737285360280766111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39902185266145418042008-09-27T14:37:00.000-04:002008-09-27T14:37:00.000-04:00I think Gledhill's point is well-made. The Episco...I think Gledhill's point is well-made. The Episcopal Church hurt itself by this canonically doubtful decision, and no one else. It is not +Duncan who has been isolated; TEC has been isolated, and truthfully, has been isolated for quite some time. Clearly, +Duncan has plenty of friends and sympathizers. TEC is no doubt more greatly unified them in his favor. Also, TEC presumes far too much on its relationships with the rest of the Anglican Communion, who have relationships with +Duncan as well -- and are also friends and sympathizers, especially now.<BR/><BR/>I have given up any hope of seeing good leadership from TEC. Apparently they will continue to move forward by bending canons and using litigation. Because they have become so predictable, and because the "network" (or whatever they are now) really does have good, forward-thinking leadership, I expect that they will exceed all expectations, and certainly get their province.<BR/><BR/>I'm convinced that if a more serious discussion was pursued in 2003, most of this could have been avoided. With this action, however, this is now no turning back.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33454294275270896922008-09-27T14:07:00.000-04:002008-09-27T14:07:00.000-04:00Allen, the problem is that you just post the same ...Allen, the problem is that you just post the same crap over and over, no matter what is the actual topic of discussion and no matter what attempts anyone else might make to engage you.<BR/><BR/>That's just trolling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com