tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post5756056996011240850..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Amos 3:, walking, talking, and all that.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14754871308140314612011-06-14T12:23:32.334-04:002011-06-14T12:23:32.334-04:00Completely agreed Mark. I support you..Completely agreed Mark. I support you..Karanhttp://www.geekzu.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75787418914630147172009-06-20T13:30:21.273-04:002009-06-20T13:30:21.273-04:00Erika's comments about listening not being the...Erika's comments about listening not being the same as agreeing remind me of the way in which some traditionalists in our diocese accused our bishop - sometimes angrily - of not litsening to them because of the way he voted at GC 2003. He had listened and voted as he discerned the Spirit.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11702395834102875512009-06-20T12:41:23.399-04:002009-06-20T12:41:23.399-04:00I join William in inviting anyone to visit our par...I join William in inviting anyone to visit our parish (Saint Matthias, East Aurora, NY - a half-hour's drive from Buffalo). Although none of our gay and lesbian members teach Sunday School - four of them teach Monday to Friday and one is a retired teacher - their presnce and that of their children is a blessing. There is a very lively section of the nave where all sorts of families sit and were I free to sit somewhere other than the presider's chair, I would choose to sit in the middle of that section.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83624942573414549212009-06-20T10:00:51.767-04:002009-06-20T10:00:51.767-04:00Jim wrote:
In fact, there is a presumption of chan...Jim wrote:<br /><i>In fact, there is a presumption of change, and it is from the liberal towards the conservative. After all if we think it important that they listen it is simply true that we think their experience will have an impact. Only a dysfunctional person would from a liberal perspective want to tell conservatives to be more conservative!</i><br /><br />I agree. We really must be more honest about the fact that we would like to persuade "the other side" to change their views. If we believe we are right, why wouldn't we want to convince others?<br /><br />I wonder, has anyone who believed in full inclusion of LGBT people in the life of the church actually been convinced to move to a more "conservative" position? I can think of a good number of folks (from a variety of denominations/traditions) who held more "conservative" views who have moved in the "progressive" direction. For an example, I recommend Bishop Neil Alexander's (+Atlanta), <i>This Far By Grace</i>.<br /><br />At the same time, I really do also agree with Erika's affirmation that we can listen to those with whom we disagree so that we can gain a more sympathetic understanding of their committments. It cannot just be about trying to convince someone to change her position; it's also important to try to understand that view in a way that allows us to better relate to that person as a brother or sister in Christ.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52571701791893733852009-06-20T04:41:42.358-04:002009-06-20T04:41:42.358-04:00Robroy
Your anger stems precisely from the fact th...Robroy<br />Your anger stems precisely from the fact that you see other people only in terms of how they impact on your life, your church, your thinking. They are one-dimensional characters, purely judged on whether they fit into your concepts of life or not.<br /><br />True listening is designed to make you see those you disagree with as individuals in their own right, with their own legitimate concerns, with their own lives. These three dimensional individuals may be completely different from you, but once you have recognised them as three dimensional and as valid and human as you are, you can no longer simply see them with reference to yourself.<br /><br />For a start, you would begin to see that they do not only impact on your life, but that you impact on theirs. <br /><br />If you truly listened and began to see people as genuine other individuals just like you, you would find that you no longer dislike them so strongly.<br />You would still disagree with them, but with more compassion and understanding.<br />You would still want to achieve what is best for you, but you would not sizzle with such dismissive anger.<br /><br />And who knows, you might even find that you could, after all, live side by side in disagreement.<br /><br /><br />If you look at the history of social conflict, you'll discover that once all those major dividing lines had been removed, people were suddenly freed to see each other as individuals, and discovered they have much more in common than they thought.<br /><br />And so you now have women in both camps, black people in both camps - and once the current dividing line has been removed and a new issue arises some time in the future, the same process will start again - and that time you will also have lgbt people in both camps.<br /><br />What unites us is truly deeper than what divides us. But we need to look at all the real depth of a person and not only see them as one thing: woman or man, white or black, gay or straight.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13845046732909279922009-06-20T00:15:55.535-04:002009-06-20T00:15:55.535-04:00The denomination that I was born and raised in is ...<i>The denomination that I was born and raised in is dead for all intents and purposes for us thanks to the gay activists.</i><br /><br />Amen and hallelujah! The denomination I was born into was devoted to assuring the rich and comfortable that their domination of society derived from nature and was blessed by a rather remote God.<br /><br />If women and gays hadn't blown their comfortable fraternity open simply by being human and attracted by the message of Jesus, they'd probably still be running that racket.janinsanfranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07548452260456734928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20571818919922052292009-06-19T15:04:55.483-04:002009-06-19T15:04:55.483-04:00I wonder if Allen should just stop digging.
Firs...I wonder if Allen should just stop digging. <br /><br />First he accuses GBT of a "lifestyle". I don't have a lifestyle. I have a life.<br /><br />Second he complains, presumably speaking of Louie Crew, that he isn't sufficiently "normal" to warrant respect. Oh, so now there's a measure of "normality"? Who chooses?<br /><br />And, I'm about as "normal" as they come in terms of passing, and the Allens of the world still treat me like scum. <br /><br />Like many of my GLBT brethren, I've about had it with Allen and his ilk and their desperate need to make a "THEM" and an "US".IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4283353388833089562009-06-19T14:52:58.802-04:002009-06-19T14:52:58.802-04:00Allen,
You wrote (ranted?):
Maybe if you want some...Allen,<br />You wrote (ranted?):<br /><i>Maybe if you want somebody to listen more you should get better spokespersons than the current line-up of "very" questionable personalities. If you want people to believe in the normalcy of the gay life then stop leaving the leadership to the loud, flashy, splashy, in-your-face and obnoxious leaders and start trotting out gay people that act a bit more...um..normal.</i><br /><br />Uh-huh... right... got it. More...um..."normal"... like +Orombi and +Akinola and Virtue.... Sure. Okay.<br /><br />... anyway: <i>loud, flashy, splashy, in-your-face and obnoxious</i> .... I'm pretty sure terms like this were applied to Martin Luther King Jr. and other activists in the Civil Rights Movement. They just need to be translated: for "loud" read "assertive"; for "flashy" read "assertive"; for "splashy" read "assertive"; for "in-your-face" ... well, you get the picture!<br /><br />I get it. Your mind is already made up against your LGBT brothers and sisters and their full equality in the church, and any assertion on their part will just reinforce your existing prejudices. If LGBT Christians are quiet and well-behaved, you can ignore them; if they assert themselves, you can condemn them as "uppity". Either way you "win."<br /><br />But I am glad you gave me some chuckles. The idea of Bishop Robinson or Elizabeth Kaeton (to name just two) as "loud, flashy, splashy, in-your-face and obnoxious" is just TOO funny!WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48990573208308424782009-06-19T14:47:02.227-04:002009-06-19T14:47:02.227-04:00In my most recent blog essay, I discuss what happe...In my most recent blog essay, I discuss what happens in the 'listening process' from the perspective of both liberal and conservative partisans. The response from my conservative friends suggests I got it right.<br /><br />In fact, there is a presumption of change, and it is from the liberal towards the conservative. After all if we think it important that <i>they listen</i> it is simply true that we think their experience will have an impact. Only a dysfunctional person would from a liberal perspective want to tell conservatives to be more conservative!<br /><br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89936696386296304012009-06-19T13:06:32.079-04:002009-06-19T13:06:32.079-04:00William K,
as I SAID and WROTE:
I am listening t...William K,<br /><br />as I SAID and WROTE:<br /><br />I am listening to those in this Province who demand to be followed.<br /><br />I have just listened to Louie Crew's major upset because he doesn't get to have first-hand knowledge about the make-up of Bishop Parsley's Committee on sex. "The Lobby" shows its true and flagrant accusatory colors about not having a crack at critiquing the makeup or having the opportunity to pressure the members.<br /><br />Read Mr. Crew's latest rant about how Bishop Parsley's Committee is probably up to "no Christian good" and then tell me why one should keep listening.<br /><br />I've HEARD yet again from a relied upon gay leader in THIS Province. No African is he.<br /> <br />It's all about control until one withers and agrees with the gay lobby in TEC.<br /><br />Maybe if you want somebody to listen more you should get better spokespersons than the current line-up of "very" questionable personalities. If you want people to believe in the normalcy of the gay life then stop leaving the leadership to the loud, flashy, splashy, in-your-face and obnoxious leaders and start trotting out gay people that act a bit more...um..normal.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89394896753276757732009-06-19T12:30:15.750-04:002009-06-19T12:30:15.750-04:00They are walking to Jerusalem, aren't they?They are walking to Jerusalem, aren't they?Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-49890503110810713392009-06-19T11:33:03.491-04:002009-06-19T11:33:03.491-04:00The denomination that I was born and raised in is ...<i>The denomination that I was born and raised in is dead for all intents and purposes for us thanks to the gay activists.</i><br /><br />I've used the word "scapegoating"... and I'll repeat it: This kind of rhetoric is scapegoating, blaming "the gay activists" (by which is meant any LGBT Episcopalian who refuses to be treated as a second-class Christian) for the fact that people have left the church. It blames the victimes of exclusion rather than the excluders.<br /><br />Robroy, here's a GENUINE invitation to you: Come to my parish, where you'll find vibrant programs for children led by teachers who love and cherish them. There are just two "hitches," I guess: some of those loving, nurturing teachers are gay or lesbian, and some of the kids have two mothers or two fathers.<br /><br />Robroy, you and your family would be WELCOMED in my parish. Sadly, I know that many members of mine would not be welcomes in yours.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66510535701683091962009-06-19T08:59:09.460-04:002009-06-19T08:59:09.460-04:00"You can still disagree with them, but you wi...<i>"You can still disagree with them, but you will do it with much less hatred, fear and vitriol - and you might even discover that it is possible to walk side by side without being of one mind."</i><br /><br />Lots of things wrong with these fine sounding words. <br /><br />Firstly, I am soooo tired of the "hatred" business. Disagree with the latest innovations and you are "hateful." Sorry, but no. Am I angry? You bet. We have young kids. The local church has shrunk so by the controversy that the children's program is dead. Susan Russell labeled the drastic decline of the denomination "the cost of discipleship." The denomination that I was born and raised in is dead for all intents and purposes for us thanks to the gay activists. And our family's experience is hardly unique. It is being repeated in town after town across the country. More than 50% of parishes now have 10 or fewer youth. <br /><br />Walk side by side? Hardly. The militant pro-gay forces are pushing their activism on the denomination. The fastest declining parishes are conservative ones in liberal diocese. It is simply not possible to walk "side by side."robroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45343324753810271262009-06-19T08:48:45.912-04:002009-06-19T08:48:45.912-04:00Why does everyone think listening means having to ...<i>Why does everyone think listening means having to change your mind?</i><br /><br />Erika,<br />I don't think "everyone" does; I certainly do not. That was the point of my challenge to Allen, who clearly has never "listened."<br /><br />Thanks for emphasizing this crucial point.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-32808518063250071532009-06-19T04:19:12.552-04:002009-06-19T04:19:12.552-04:00Why does everyone think listening means having to ...Why does everyone think listening means having to change your mind?<br /><br />Truly listening opens your eyes to the reality of the one you're talking to and it helps you to see their sincerity and their integrity.<br /><br />You can still disagree with them, but you will do it with much less hatred, fear and vitriol - and you might even discover that it is possible to walk side by side without being of one mind.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11094188783914336562009-06-18T17:40:45.180-04:002009-06-18T17:40:45.180-04:00William,
My question now becomes,
"If my li...William,<br /><br />My question now becomes,<br /><br />"If my listening doesn't suit you then why do you need my approval or listening anyway?"<br /><br />Apprently we are in the company of those who go ahead and make liturgical and canonical changes and much later make them official at General Convention. (How this can demand respect and adherence to the canons from the remainder of TEC I just haven't figured out).<br /><br />My advice is to just go ahead. Be revisionist. Forget the canons and change them later. Go forth and succeed with the agenda. You certainly don't need my approval, if you ever wanted it. This Church has unquestioningly become very favorable for the GLBT and one should then hope that the bishop of New Hampshire, Bishop Otis Charles, and many others will finally succeed and spark a massive entrance of that community into the increasing void of the TEC.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62888799572151321672009-06-18T16:32:55.042-04:002009-06-18T16:32:55.042-04:00Allen,
You wrote:
I have heard very sufficiently f...Allen,<br />You wrote:<br /><i>I have heard very sufficiently from the leading gay activists in TEC who claim to speak for their gay constituents.</i><br /><br />I don't "hear" this as indicating that you have actually <i>listened</i> to your gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Your evident animosity towards the "gay activists" to whom you refer suggests to me that you have not. Have you actually ever sat down with a self-affirming gay or lesbian Christian and really <i>listened</i>?<br /><br />As for your personal prescriptions for church policy.... I do appreciate your willingness to be inclusive as far as you feel able. But, I must confess that my initial reaction was to think how much this seemed like offering the dogs crumbs from the table.<br /><br /><i>If that causes pain, then it is only the pain of one's ego....</i><br /><br />I wonder why you think you are in a position to say what character "pain" has or where it comes from? Do you think the pain a Black person felt at being made to sit at the back of the bus was "only the pain of one's ego"? If so, was that pain any less real, or any less legitimate?<br /><br />And what if denying someone ordination denies the call of God?<br /><br />P.S. to David [Dah-veed] ... I have visited the sites you name and am aware of how much more vitriolic the language is there, where there is no restraint on it. But, even if the language used here has been more "civil," it is simply a matter of degrees ... and I have little trouble detecting the animosity just beneath the surface.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-87261141345211734272009-06-18T15:52:58.552-04:002009-06-18T15:52:58.552-04:00allen, your response is very similar to the idea t...allen, your response is very similar to the idea that it doesn't matter which water fountain you use, because the water that comes out is the same.<br /><br />Either you are for equality, or you aren't. We know which side you are on.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33943655339140121972009-06-18T15:10:00.011-04:002009-06-18T15:10:00.011-04:00Lynn,
I see three points:
One: the KJV 'unle...Lynn,<br /><br />I see three points:<br /><br />One: the KJV 'unless they agree' needs to be read in the context of then contemporary English usage. If it is, a reasonable literary conclusion is that there is an implied "to meet." <br /><br />Two: the 'agreed to walk;' ''made an appointment' or 'to meet' fits the context of the section. Amos is listing a series of impossiblities to make a point not setting out theology. <br /><br />Three: Amos over-all is certainly not about theological purity! His concern with social justice is not a good basis from which to argue for inequity.<br /><br /><br />The misuse of Amos 3 is consonant with the "have I got a verse for you! theology<b>*</b>" that seeks not to understand the Spirit's intent but to find a quotation that can be used to beat someone up. Anything is I guess, acceptable in pursuit of an archbishop's title. <br /><br />FWIW<br />jimB<br /><br />____________<br />* A name for the practice for which I am indebted to Fr. David Weaver. He used it in a conversation we shared one afternoon and I had to order and drink a large glass of ice water before I could finally control my laughter. There is another restaurant to which I can never return. ;-)JimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-49804966262708695662009-06-18T13:59:38.349-04:002009-06-18T13:59:38.349-04:00Phil, that was not the first comment Brad has left...Phil, that was not the first comment Brad has left here on Father Mark's blog. And I have seen the comments that he is leaving on other blogs. I know that Father Mark is busy, so I was just letting him be privy to what was occurring.<br /><br />I am helping administer a blog that has its share of trolls. They are difficult to keep up with at times.<br /><br />WilliamK, they are actually very civil here in their comments. Visit STiF or T19 to get a feel for their unbridled passion for us.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21032630091819559592009-06-18T13:57:22.124-04:002009-06-18T13:57:22.124-04:00Sorry William K.
I have heard very sufficiently f...Sorry William K.<br /><br />I have heard very sufficiently from the leading gay activists in TEC who claim to speak for their gay constituents.<br /><br />I have decided that, for my part, gay folks (even partnered folks) should be welcomed in our churches, should lead in the laity, and yet there is still enough contradictory Scriptural and catholic opinion that will not allow this lifestyle to be commended in the form of marriage or given ordination representation.<br /><br />If that causes pain, then it is only the pain of one's ego rather than the denial of practical rights. The laity is the primary ministry in Christ's Church, and one's legal rights are not curtailed by not being married by the Church.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-9534011184778064132009-06-18T13:54:08.698-04:002009-06-18T13:54:08.698-04:00Orgelman, I am not in your diocese, but a travelin...Orgelman, I am not in your diocese, but a traveling road show as you describe would have been worse than nothing. I believe that I know of the leader/blogger whom you describe.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-44615489883660359682009-06-18T12:34:58.250-04:002009-06-18T12:34:58.250-04:00From the "tone" of their comments here, ...From the "tone" of their comments here, I think it is safe to conclude that "Robroy" and Allen have listened to just about everything EXCEPT "to the experience of homosexual persons...." Had they, I doubt they could speak with such contempt and animosity and use such scapegoating rhetoric.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-28352282530758396602009-06-18T12:04:22.368-04:002009-06-18T12:04:22.368-04:00Grandmére Mimi I don’t know which diocese you are ...Grandmére Mimi I don’t know which diocese you are in, but we in Western Louisiana had a traveling ‘road show’ grandly called a listening process. <br /><br />Each meeting began with a rather biased history of “how we got here” given by a conservative leader in this diocese who would be well known to many of the readers here for his rants on his personal blog. This was followed by other speakers touching on the woes of the Episcopal Church and then by speakers from the floor.<br /><br />Although there was some discussion of sex, there was no dialogue with openly gay persons. These meetings were thinly veiled gripe sessions.<br /><br />As to Robroy’s comment “it was clear that communication from the liberals was in one direction: "You conservatives sit down, shut up, and we will tell like it is."<br /><br />I can assure you that groups of people from several conservative congregations sat together at these meetings and were extremely vocal and disrespectful to anyone with whom they disagreed. At one point a younger priest (well educated, straight and married) was told to ‘shut up and sit down.’Orgelmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-65795036782546947002009-06-18T11:30:26.803-04:002009-06-18T11:30:26.803-04:00Brad....ah...you didn't say the Klansman was i...Brad....ah...you didn't say the Klansman was in his robes. Yep, I'd tell him to remove them and come back too. <br /><br />But we might be wrong to do so. A really good usher might be able to convince him to remove the robe before coming in (like leaving your guns at the entryway). <br /><br />I was a rector in a parish that was pre-revolutionary war in origin and there were Revolutionary War dead buried in the churchyard. We had a reenactment group come and do a salute for those who had died, and they began by coming to church in full uniform. I asked them to stack their arms outside before entering, as this was a place of peace. It gave rise to an interesting conversation after the service.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.com