tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post5931540786276657769..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The GAFCON / FCA Primates Council Plots, Plans and Fusses.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66467429849944446682008-09-06T10:43:00.000-04:002008-09-06T10:43:00.000-04:00OK, I'm missing something. How are the rates of HI...OK, I'm missing something. How are the rates of HIV infection in Africa the fault of PECUSA and its Presiding Bishop? IfThe Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61699497732287862862008-09-06T09:00:00.000-04:002008-09-06T09:00:00.000-04:00David“possibly 90 million people would not be livi...David<BR/><BR/>“possibly 90 million people would not be living with HIV/AIDS.”<BR/><BR/>Please note I said “possibly” not “currently”.<BR/><BR/>Please visit HIV/Aids in Africa Wikipedia and the BBC “HIV set to infect 90 million Africans”.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22894726710586941342008-09-06T02:29:00.000-04:002008-09-06T02:29:00.000-04:00then possibly 90 million people would not be livin...<I>then possibly 90 million people would not be living with HIV/AIDS</I><BR/><BR/>A web search shows those figures are triple inflated. The UN and USCDCP says between 31 and 35 million are currently living with HIV infection worldwide.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52556344491864415652008-09-05T06:02:00.000-04:002008-09-05T06:02:00.000-04:00Thank you for your apology.I think I understand yo...Thank you for your apology.<BR/><BR/>I think I understand your problem you think people write in code.<BR/><BR/>When I say “sex outside marriage” I mean “sex outside marriage”<BR/><BR/>If, those who promote chastity and fidelity had been listened to then possibly 90 million people would not be living with HIV/AIDS and 18 million children would not be facing becoming orphans. This is mainly a heterosexual problem. <BR/>These are WHO figures and not hyperbole. <BR/><BR/>I do not know who these Reasserters are. Never heard of Reasserter and will not be responding to the arguments that appear to be more directed to them than to me.<BR/><BR/>I think we have presumed on Preludium's good offices enough. For me this thread is dead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-9017143768393489442008-09-05T05:49:00.000-04:002008-09-05T05:49:00.000-04:00As we know ...It becomes infuriating to see the pr...As we know ...<BR/><BR/>It becomes infuriating to see the presiding bishop repeatedly call "Mrs. Schori" on the Internet. On Stand Firm and Virtue Online they do that using the term "Mrs." for the other women Episcopal/Anglican women bishops. Men who are Episcopal/Anglican bishops that they don't like are called "Mr."<BR/><BR/>Our brother "allen" here merely apes this unfortunate habit that he has seen so often elsewhere. When one would assume the ultra-consevatives would value traditional form and style of address in their published dealings, we instead see otherwise grown up Americans claiming to be good Anglicans but then using the trashiest trailer court rhetoric and childish name calling.<BR/><BR/>Of course this says much more about the poor control of internalized anger and desperation vented in Web forums than it does about any bishop. Friend "allen" has seen older people walk out of his parish and he mentions other reasons for his distress related to the global context of The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion. A stimulus for anger indeed in this particular case.<BR/><BR/>I will say this. Name calling and boorish behavior will never win friends or influence people except for other boors and childish types. Hence the hasty and ill considered remarks of this type that we see about The Episcopal Church and her bishops will always have somewhat limited appeal.<BR/><BR/>For those who are angry like "allen," I offer my sincere hope that they will find a better place and a happier day in good time to rid themselves of such a burden. In any case, none of us is able to change or turn the church alone, and certainly not by bad behavior.<BR/><BR/>Just my two cents worth here. <BR/>.Robert Zacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13249208047645645825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34980592263915536812008-09-04T23:41:00.000-04:002008-09-04T23:41:00.000-04:00You are correct, you didn't say "every day": I ap...You are correct, you didn't say "every day": I apologize for misrepresenting you.<BR/><BR/>The rest stands, however. Hyperbole and hysteria, on your part, an attempt to make a position of mere homophobia appear to be a concern for actual health and life that supersedes actually caring for and <B>listening to</B> those people you are "caring" for.<BR/><BR/><I>The World Health Organisation estimates that sadly since 1981 25 million people have died of AIDS.</I><BR/><BR/>Then AIDS has killed people, not gay sex. I realize you didn't say gay sex killed anyone, but, since you are so big on how things <B>appear</B>, we have come to realize that, for Reasserters and so-called "orthodox," "sex outside marriage" is code for "gay sex."<BR/><BR/>Ignorance, too, has killed people. Ignorance that in Africa denies an AIDs crisis because of the deception that there "are no gays in Africa." Men such as Deng Bul of Sudan have made such claims. Ignorance in the First World that dismisses AIDs as a "gay disease" and so doesn't think a cure is worth all that money that could be used for - oh - wars, tax-breaks, school vouchers, faith initiatives and such. This may not be how Reasserters view themselves, but it how they <I>appear</I> because of their words and actions to us.<BR/><BR/>Where is the love in <B>them</B>?<BR/><BR/><I>Again my structure on your thinking was not an accusation that you have not thought about it - no -rather it may be that the Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim Bahai view may be right and you wrong.</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, still means the same thing: an accusation that I have not thought through the possibility they might be right. They cannot convince, and, in a world in which people are becoming better educated about biology, psychology and bio-diversity, they are becoming increasingly less convincing. That <I>is</I> - by definition - thinking these things through. I had to think about it to realize that their reasoning lacks a fundamental basis. Your accusation is that I have not thought that "I may possibly" be wrong.<BR/><BR/>Still don't see that?<BR/><BR/><I>In your anguish but certainty <B>just think</B> it may possibly be you that has got it wrong.</I><BR/><BR/>Emphasis mine.<BR/><BR/>There.<BR/><BR/>I <I>have</I> thought, most all of us opposed to the so-called "orthodox" have thought about it, because we have grown up surrounded by such a belief system - which simply hasn't worked. I think that it is the so-calle "orthodox" who have not thought it through, as it costs them absolutely nothing to believe such things on a personal level, and allows them a false sense of righteousness. And, before you trot out the example of myriads of gays who have "historically" lived the church's teaching, prove that they actually live that way, and that they are actually gay, and that they have not sustained irreperable emotional and psychological damage from such a thing, because I can point you to at least 10 people, off the top of my head, who <B>have</B> been damaged by such teaching - and had the good sense to realize its unrealiable nature.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50881472189367161202008-09-04T10:46:00.000-04:002008-09-04T10:46:00.000-04:00Mark Where in my post did I say”every day”?“You ma...Mark <BR/><BR/>Where in my post did I say”every day”?<BR/><BR/>“You may also want to back up your - or at least I presume your - assertion that "millions upon millions" are dying every day because of any of the issues addressed here. That is rather a hyperbolic and hysterical assertion on your part that undermines any credibility, and certainly does nothing to sway me that your side does not consistently indulge in the evil of deception.”<BR/><BR/>It is you that used the deception of adding “are dying every day”. This misrepresents my post. I did not say “every day” so that you can say “That is rather a hyperbolic and hysterical assertion on your part that undermines any credibility, and certainly does nothing to sway me that your side does not consistently indulge in the evil of deception.”<BR/><BR/>The World Health Organisation estimates that sadly since 1981 25 million people have died of AIDS. <BR/><BR/>Again my structure on your thinking was not an accusation that you have not thought about it - no -rather it may be that the Orthodox, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim Bahai view may be right and you wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78631530906219724312008-09-03T23:38:00.000-04:002008-09-03T23:38:00.000-04:00Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil...<I>Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil then love is absent. I repeat where is the love in that? People may have different views but that does not make them evil –mad, cowards, uneducated, disconnected,weak, etc. Argue the point yes – revile the people no. In your anguish but certainty just think it may possibly be you that has got it wrong.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>In what way did I misrepresent your post?<BR/><BR/>At no point did you indicate you were speaking of others' perceptions of what I have said, rather you assert that I "revile" them. Your statements are written as your own statements and perceptions. If this is not what you meant, your writing lacks clarity.<BR/><BR/>Your response here:<BR/><BR/><I>Secondly I made no presumption with regard to own questioning. Remember that millions upon millions have died and are dying and lives lost and ruined because the message of chastity outside marriage has been undermined.</I><BR/><BR/>is a non-sequitir. Your first statement has no relation to the second. On the other hand, in your first post, your statement <I>. . . just think it may possibly be you that has got it wrong.</I> is, by its structure, an accusation that I have not done such thinking.<BR/><BR/>You may also want to back up your - or at least I presume your - assertion that "millions upon millions" are dying every day because of any of the issues addressed here. That is rather a hyperbolic and hysterical assertion on your part that undermines any credibility, and certainly does nothing to sway me that your side does not consistently indulge in the evil of deception.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61634012998757782462008-09-03T11:34:00.000-04:002008-09-03T11:34:00.000-04:00What I learned from my field trip to Preludiumland...What I learned from my field trip to Preludiumland:<BR/><BR/>1. Some folks are capable of problem-solving while most aren't.<BR/>2. All reasserters want gay folk persecuted because we don't believe that gay marriage is possible.<BR/>3. It's OK to lose thousands of TEC members for the New Thing and chalk them all up to being ill-educated bigots.<BR/>4. Snarky commenters still haven't answered with substance how this can all be avoided...which means that it's going to be trench warfare in the future.<BR/>5. Too many TEC leaders oppose the Anglican Covenant which will happen with or without TEC.<BR/>6. I haven't heard anyone answer who is replacing the loss of life-long Episcopalians who are leaving in the elder years. We seem to believe that the official New Thing is worth the loss of our life-long core.<BR/>7. THE BIGGEST: The Anglican way will continue to grow in America, but so far TEC has given up its rightful claim to being able to produce or sustain it's moniker.<BR/>...and apparently that's OK because no one is serious about reversing it, or perhaps they are waiting on...??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23700571992151525132008-09-03T09:21:00.000-04:002008-09-03T09:21:00.000-04:00Isn't it funny how the same people who dismiss the...Isn't it funny how the same people who dismiss the PB's earned degree insist on calling David Virtue "Dr. Virtue," based on a very suspicious honorary degree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14886273058239332972008-09-03T07:55:00.000-04:002008-09-03T07:55:00.000-04:00You misrepresent my post. It does not suggest what...You misrepresent my post. It does not suggest what you assert.<BR/><BR/>Please read my post more carefully, for the point I was making that though you think calling peoples actions evil is not the same as calling people evil, many will not receive this in a nuanced way. They not see any charity in it they see Christian disunity and walk away.<BR/><BR/>Secondly I made no presumption with regard to own questioning. Remember that millions upon millions have died and are dying and lives lost and ruined because the message of chastity outside marriage has been undermined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78258028867083187992008-09-02T23:37:00.000-04:002008-09-02T23:37:00.000-04:00Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil...<I>Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil then love is absent. I repeat where is the love in that? People may have different views but that does not make them evil –mad, cowards, uneducated, disconnected,weak, etc. Argue the point yes – revile the people no. In your anguish but certainty just think it may possibly be you that has got it wrong.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>There is no love where there is no accountability.<BR/><BR/>You err gravely on two points: to call evil action evil is not to call the person evil. On this, the Reasserters and I agree. A house divided cannot stand, and it will be God's mercy that prevails for whichever is wrong, I hope.<BR/><BR/>Second, you presume that I do not and have not questioned the rightness of my own action and belief. This is incorrect. I daily question it, but human lives other than my own are at stake, human souls, as well, and I cannot allow equivocation to bring me to a standstill without persuasive evidence that I am wrong. This is my responsibility and I am accountable for "things done and left undone."MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31124020487701024702008-09-02T10:53:00.000-04:002008-09-02T10:53:00.000-04:00There are a very few places on the web where progr...There are a very few places on the web where progressive and traditionalists meet and actually have some civil dialog. Unfortunately, they are rare.<BR/><BR/>I am amused to note that when Allen whose conduct defines "troll" gets called the voices of the traditionalists rise to claim the progressive side is not being inclusive. Credibility would be enhanced were the same concern shown when on Dr. Virtue's site or Stand Firm, when a progressive is attacked. <BR/><BR/>I should note to be fair that my experience is that SFF's <B>authors</B> do not attack people. Their <B>posters</B> are another matter entire.<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50550496979401796912008-09-02T10:47:00.000-04:002008-09-02T10:47:00.000-04:00Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil...Mark when opponents call each other’s actions evil then love is absent. I repeat where is the love in that? People may have different views but that does not make them evil –mad, cowards, uneducated, disconnected,weak, etc. Argue the point yes – revile the people no. In your anguish but certainty just think it may possibly be you that has got it wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21870056972638399072008-09-02T07:17:00.000-04:002008-09-02T07:17:00.000-04:00"Ever notice that actual physicians and physicists..."Ever notice that actual physicians and physicists never insist on their titles nearly as much as clergy/religious beaurocrats [sic] do?" Guess you know a whole different bunch of physicians and physicists from the ones I'm acquainted with, Fred Preuss. <BR/><BR/>Oceanography, in which the PB holds an earned PhD, is not,in my book, "a subject that can't be checked out/proven".Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27900742630242385532008-09-02T04:58:00.000-04:002008-09-02T04:58:00.000-04:00Fred Preuss, Thank you for your comments.I do not ...Fred Preuss, Thank you for your comments.<BR/><BR/>I do not think that these guys realise how petty point scoring over titles reads to non Christians?<BR/><BR/>I notice no one has defended their staying in Anglicanism. Is it simply staying in order to remove the others that they have such rancorous disputes with?<BR/><BR/>A house divided will not stand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-46303977259184514602008-09-02T00:39:00.000-04:002008-09-02T00:39:00.000-04:00Yes, we love each other enough not to say that the...Yes, we love each other enough not to say that the evil we see each other doing is right. I respect that the Reasserters believe we are doing evil, they just are unconvincing in their arguments, and, from a liberal viewpoint, we know the evil they're doing, though they refuse our testimony.<BR/><BR/>Allen,<BR/><BR/>Really? The whole of your contribution at Judgment Day will be to stand before God and say, "I served You by making Episcopalians miserable?" Would He be pleased? Would any god that would be pleased be worth the effort of worshipping?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Marshall, <BR/><BR/>Thank you for clarifying what I was saying in my last statement. Don't "cast 'em out" or shun them, but do hold them responsible for repentance and changing their ways.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50509131296151680872008-09-01T21:02:00.000-04:002008-09-01T21:02:00.000-04:00I'm a non-christian (non believer) and I do read t...I'm a non-christian (non believer) and I do read these remarks.<BR/> Pitiful need for titles-a Doctorate in a subject that can't be checked out/proven.<BR/> Ever notice that actual physicians and physicists never insist on their titles nearly as much as clergy/religious beaurocrats do?<BR/> Doctor Martin Luther King. Doctor Ian Paisley. Doctor James Kennedy.<BR/> From being the queen of the sciences, judging from the main topic of interest in the mainline, and the grossly disproportionate number of gays in seminaries, theology has become the science of queens.Fred Preusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06438368833909384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69001208769508850252008-09-01T14:13:00.000-04:002008-09-01T14:13:00.000-04:00>>>Before I bid this ever-shrinking circl...>>>Before I bid this ever-shrinking circle an adieu<BR/><BR/>Didn't you already make your dramatic exit a few weeks ago?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78154063815171514962008-09-01T13:51:00.000-04:002008-09-01T13:51:00.000-04:00Boy don’t you guys love one another.Imagine a non ...Boy don’t you guys love one another.<BR/><BR/>Imagine a non Christian reading the above comments.<BR/><BR/>Please tell me why should anyone become an Anglican or stay an Anglican when you despise each other so much?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59705398596028489892008-08-31T21:48:00.000-04:002008-08-31T21:48:00.000-04:00Allen, your last screed will help revive the potte...Allen, your last screed will help revive the potted plant in my office.<BR/><BR/>Out here, in the most agrarian part of my country, we don't need posers like you to condescend to us. You'd like to pretend that all of us in the hinterland share your neanderthaal views. You might be surprised.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81435628599655657402008-08-31T15:19:00.000-04:002008-08-31T15:19:00.000-04:00Let's see:An Evangelism Director who has been note...Let's see:<BR/><BR/>An Evangelism Director who has been noted for his venom and sarcasm here and elsewhere, and regulars who blog insults without restraint. Yep. Only in the revisionist world. TEC's liberal elite will join the lofty depths of the UCC within 20 years.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for dragging us all down to such a state of disrepair so that the whole Anglican world (forget the "polygamists, etc") see us as "jerks" (credit to WSJM for the warm thought).<BR/><BR/>Before I bid this ever-shrinking circle an adieu, I promise to stay in TEC and give my bishop one helluva ride for his money and keep him honest. <BR/><BR/>For those snarky elites who loathe me, just realize that the majority of TEC doesn't revolve around your urban and liberal circles and that the true growth pockets are revolting in the ranks in alarming numbers. Many of you dismiss them away because some of you folks seem to just lack the creativity and integrity to fix the issues. What's five missing dioceses and thousands of members this year? History is recording the faces of the arrogant, blind and self-satisfied leadership of this generation who presided over the break-up of TEC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-46852481249071822052008-08-31T00:21:00.000-04:002008-08-31T00:21:00.000-04:00In the CofE, all bishops are customarily referred ...In the CofE, all bishops are customarily referred to as Dr., wjether they have an earned doctorate or not. In most cases, the basis of the appelation is the honorary DDs they've been granted.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27804461945495296922008-08-30T23:20:00.000-04:002008-08-30T23:20:00.000-04:00I must say that I tire of the rhetoric of the righ...I must say that I tire of the rhetoric of the right about the death of the liberal church. I am one of those "heterodox" clergy whose congregation practices radical inclusivity, bless the relationships of all people who conform to an ethic of mutuality and sacrificial love, and who explore the deep metaphorical and mythic dimensions of the Gospel. Mine is a church that is growing (more important spiritually, but also numerically)! In a place where one would not expect it (Utah). In light of tomorrow's gospel I am reminded that Jesus understood that everything in this material existence will come to an end. Sometimes it seems that the right is more concerned with preserving a specific manifestation of the church than risking the loss that true connection to Christ in others requires. I bid those in GAFCON/FCA a respectful fairwell. I, for one, am ready to walk with anyone (Anglican or otherwise) who are willing to walk with us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-57315810570934970592008-08-30T22:46:00.000-04:002008-08-30T22:46:00.000-04:00The irony, Autobiographical Mark, is that we know ...The irony, Autobiographical Mark, is that we know how Jesus treated "sinners and tax collectors:" he partied with them. In at least hoping that the "reasserters" would perhaps stay with us to share without having to agree, we did want to treat them that way. We also want to treat that way GLBT Christians; and for that reason they have decided to treat us the way most folks <I>other</I> than Jesus have chosen to treat "sinners and tax collectors."Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.com