tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post5953671261494415857..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Peter Carrell points beyond the democratic process...Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-82486816233346691392010-08-04T20:45:17.326-04:002010-08-04T20:45:17.326-04:00Dah-veed, you pose two excellent questions. I'...Dah-veed, you pose two excellent questions. I'd like to know the answers, too.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-57386143840045995842010-08-04T20:42:43.782-04:002010-08-04T20:42:43.782-04:00It would be interesting to have a breakdown of two...It would be interesting to have a breakdown of two issues at the last CoE GS. First, who was behind the idea that the Anglican Covenant should be allowed to pass GS by a simple majority. And second, who was behind the idea that female bishops in the CoE should need a super majority to pass GS.<br /><br />I would wager that there is quite a bit of overlap in the the folks who came up with these two different amounts of majority needed to pass the measures.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81201566542219386722010-08-04T07:49:47.434-04:002010-08-04T07:49:47.434-04:00I would like to see the Church of England reject t...I would like to see the Church of England reject the covenant by an overwhelming margin.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33338475949670185232010-08-04T05:16:36.147-04:002010-08-04T05:16:36.147-04:00Hi Lionel
I agree with you for the most part in wh...Hi Lionel<br />I agree with you for the most part in what you say; but I do not think you are saying that you would like the C of E GS to approve the Covenant by an overwhelming majority ... which I think would be a good thing!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-57774728064526010012010-08-03T14:31:41.589-04:002010-08-03T14:31:41.589-04:00Peter,
I would argue that “consensus” is not the ...Peter,<br /><br />I would argue that “consensus” is not the same thing as “100% agreement.” Even when, say, a vestry discusses a matter until everyone agrees on a plan of action without actually taking a vote, “consensus” usually means that everyone has acquiesced, not that they have agreed. If we wait for 100% agreement on, say, blessing of same-sex unions within the Anglican Communion, we will wait til hell freezes over.<br /><br />That said, I agree that certain important decisions may require more than a simple majority to carry a sense of legitimacy. This is why I am concerned about the CoE General Synod’s being ready to approve the covenant by simple majority vote.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-958962785659731962010-08-03T13:21:21.821-04:002010-08-03T13:21:21.821-04:00Hi Lionel,
Two examples spring to mind. In Acts 1...Hi Lionel,<br /><br />Two examples spring to mind. In Acts 15 it appears that the council in Jerusalem reached a consensus on the decision about how the once Jewish but now Jewish-and-Gentile mission would go forward.<br /><br />My second example is, perhaps, more trivial, but I am thinking generically of those occasions in local churches when vestries (or executive committees) realise that, trivial though it is in the big scheme of things, it is better to achieve consensus on (say)changing the brand of coffee used than divide the congregation ... yet the same vestries, on other matters, may be quite comfortable to work on majority votes.<br /><br />I guess I could draw on other occasions ... I have been part of many decision making occasions in my church in which we have worked our way to a consensus ... I have also been present in decision-making bodies in which we have put off coming to a decision because we have realised that no consensus is imminent. (I guess that decision is itself a consensus one!)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-72613723290447108382010-08-03T08:55:50.505-04:002010-08-03T08:55:50.505-04:00Speaking as someone who has spent a long time teac...Speaking as someone who has spent a long time teaching college women who blithely explain to me that feminism is completely unnecessary any more, I must say that I am not nearly as engaged by the brouhaha about democracy (deeply flawed business, just less flawed than pretty much any other sort of system) as I am by the continuing efforts of a bunch of aging men to perpetuate the patriarchal hegemony. But then, of course, democracy and human rights do have a fair amount to do with each other...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11015463457108574582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-80474708593753644112010-08-03T08:52:09.501-04:002010-08-03T08:52:09.501-04:00Peter,
Can you cite a case in the history of the ...Peter,<br /><br />Can you cite a case in the history of the Church in which 100% agreement was desired and eventually achieved? I have a hard time understanding your point without a concrete example.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33146217751188038772010-08-02T21:55:07.767-04:002010-08-02T21:55:07.767-04:00An excellent reply to my point, Mark!
I would sim...An excellent reply to my point, Mark!<br /><br />I would simply proffer, not to keep an argument going, but to point to the complexity of life, that sometimes democracy is the way to go for the church, and sometimes not. The 'not' times are when people feel strongly that a particular decision needs 100% agreement: however long it takes, we will wait for each other to come to a common mind.<br /><br />What kind of time it is in England I am not sure. But I would like all sides of the debate there to draw closer to Christ!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59060375530836227112010-08-02T18:29:08.501-04:002010-08-02T18:29:08.501-04:00Let Jesus Christ be Jesus Christ, and let the Bish...<i>Let Jesus Christ be Jesus Christ, and let the Bishop be a servant of the Lord. All else is false expectation and mad hope.</i><br /><br />I'm reminded of <a href="http://bishopalan.blogspot.com/2010/06/if-you-want-to-get-ahead-get-hat.html" rel="nofollow">Bishop Alan's words</a>:<br /><br /><i>...when all is said and done I am just a driver of the Lord’s Number 49 bus, and the more I can rememeber it’s his bus not mine, saints preserve me, the less likely I am to get too far up myself.</i><br /><br />And if those of us who are not bishops might keep your words and Bishop Alan's words in mind, we'd all be much the better for it.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com