tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post6213852265598618215..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: End of Year grades.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20032172525119368512008-12-24T11:58:00.000-05:002008-12-24T11:58:00.000-05:00I'll let you have the last word on this, Matt. Yo...I'll let you have the last word on this, Matt. Your soul may be fine - that's a judgment between you and God. But your ego is waaayyy to big for me to handle.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17974212966508871572008-12-23T20:49:00.000-05:002008-12-23T20:49:00.000-05:00"Okay, I'll take back coy and deceptive, but you'r..."Okay, I'll take back coy and deceptive, but you're really not going to like the replacements."<BR/><BR/>which are?<BR/><BR/>"Just because you say that my relationship with my beloved is not holy doesn't make it so."<BR/><BR/>You are right. It makes no difference what I say...unless of course what I say (or anyone says) is consistent with what God reveals in scripture. Then it makes quite a bit of difference.<BR/><BR/>"And, when NJ finally approves Same Sex Marriage, we will be legally married, whether or not you like it or define it differently."<BR/><BR/>You may call it what you will and the state may call it what it will, but that does not make it so.<BR/><BR/>"Here's the real question, Matt: Why do you even care?"<BR/><BR/>Oh, I suppose because I am a pastor with people who struggle with these things and I am a Christian in the west where this particular error threatens to destroy the faith and souls of tens of thousands<BR/><BR/>"You've left TEC for a 'holier, purer' organized religion."<BR/><BR/>This is probably one of the more interesting rhetorical moves those on the revisionist side pull. It is, after all, the revisionists who argue that same sex behavior is "pure" and "holy". <BR/><BR/>We, on the other hand, are simply resisting the reclassification of a particular sin. No one argues on the orthodox side that those in the new church are "pure" or "holy". The opposite is the case. We are quite clear about that fact that we are all sinners. <BR/><BR/>It is the left that seeks to obscure that fact and build a facade of "righteousness" and "purity"...to build a "pure" church...not through sanctification and transformation, but far more superficially, through semantics and redefinition. <BR/><BR/>"Just move on, Matt."<BR/><BR/>Well no thank you. Since pro-homosexual behavior activists have made this particular issue one that every Christian pastor of every denomination must address squarely, "moving on" from discussing and opposing it is simply not possible.<BR/><BR/>"It's really a whole lot better for your soul..."<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your concern. My soul is just fine.Matt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-80163034594879382582008-12-23T14:41:00.000-05:002008-12-23T14:41:00.000-05:00Okay, I'll take back coy and deceptive, but you're...Okay, I'll take back coy and deceptive, but you're really not going to like the replacements.<BR/><BR/>Just because you say that my relationship with my beloved is not holy doesn't make it so. <BR/><BR/>And, when NJ finally approves Same Sex Marriage, we will be legally married, whether or not you like it or define it differently.<BR/><BR/>Here's the real question, Matt: Why do you even care? You've left TEC for a 'holier, purer' organized religion. <BR/><BR/>Just move on, Matt. It's really a whole lot better for your soul<BR/><BR/>The word verification is: nonon. How cool is that?Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75049508684800525642008-12-23T06:20:00.000-05:002008-12-23T06:20:00.000-05:00No Elizabeth+. I was being neither "coy" nor "disc...No Elizabeth+. I was being neither "coy" nor "discourteous". I was being quite clear. The word "marriage" has meaning. So does the word "holy". Neither can be correctly applied to non-celibate same sex relationships. What is deceptive is the revisionist re-definition of these words to accommodate behavior scripture defines as sin and then,what is "discourteous" is the expression of indignation when those of us who do not accept your corruption of these words refuse to use them according to your definitions. <BR/><BR/>Matt KennedyMatt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78210680590608797962008-12-22T21:52:00.000-05:002008-12-22T21:52:00.000-05:00I get that you understand Christian marriage diffe...I get that you understand Christian marriage differently than I do, Robert. I can live with that - mainly because I have been living with that reality for 33 years. My skin is a lot tougher than you think.<BR/><BR/>As we like to say in my house, "Being gay is not for sissies."<BR/><BR/>That's not the point. Matt was being coy and deceptive at the expense of LGBT people. That is neither pastoral nor compassionate not to mention highly discourteous. I was calling him on that.<BR/><BR/>The word verification is "milly".Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15217750123047380502008-12-20T17:14:00.000-05:002008-12-20T17:14:00.000-05:00Perhaps this is why schism in the end has become n...Perhaps this is why schism in the end has become necessary -- because we cannot hear the honest expressions and opinions of each other without becoming personally offended.<BR/><BR/>There are still a lot of remaining Episcopalians who understanding that "Christian marriage is a solemn and public covenant between a man and a woman in the presence of God," and that this -- and only this -- constitutes a holy union. I hope, Mother Elizabeth, you can deal with us who remain without becoming personally offended at us.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66351786566801832642008-12-20T13:56:00.000-05:002008-12-20T13:56:00.000-05:00I know, I know, Matt. You believe that there's no...I know, I know, Matt. You believe that there's nothing 'holy' about my 33 year covenant with Ms. Conroy.<BR/><BR/>That doesn't make it so. You are not only being misleading, you are being insulting.<BR/><BR/>But, I suppose you know that. What you lack in compassion and pastoral sensitivity, you certainly make up for in intelligence. If you'd like to have a bit of fun tweaking the readers here, that's fine, but I think you misjudge the intelligence of Mark's readers. However, if you must, please do not do so at the expense of the integrity of LGBT people. Thank you.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18730470972318101062008-12-20T09:31:00.000-05:002008-12-20T09:31:00.000-05:00I understand your point mar Mark+. From my point o...I understand your point mar Mark+. From my point of view however, the use of terms "holy union" or "marriage" to describe non-celibate same sex unions is far more misleading.<BR/><BR/>Matt KennedyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-90263965892853954772008-12-20T08:39:00.000-05:002008-12-20T08:39:00.000-05:00I understood Matt+ perfectly well. THere was noth...I understood Matt+ perfectly well. THere was nothing misleading in what he said.<BR/><BR/>If you had not redefined marriage in your heads, you would have as well.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70077993606930288312008-12-20T04:54:00.000-05:002008-12-20T04:54:00.000-05:00Matt Kennedy: Well, OK make it 66%. However, your...Matt Kennedy: Well, OK make it 66%. However, your response gets a wack too. You are right, some jurisdictions in ACNA will allow women to be deacons and priests. And yes Kenya has allowed this for some time. As I understand it, women will not be able to be bishops in ACNA. So, you get 59%.<BR/><BR/>As to gay people, ACNA seemingly will allow celibate gay people to hold positions in the church. I of course was speaking of gay people who are not opposed to being who they are.<BR/><BR/>Your last sentence is of course correct and totally misleading.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21643171560000678922008-12-19T22:58:00.000-05:002008-12-19T22:58:00.000-05:00Hi Elizabeth+, Kenya was pro-WO long before we arr...Hi Elizabeth+, Kenya was pro-WO long before we arrived on the scene. They were not making special accommodations. <BR/><BR/>Matt KennedyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59092379740591277382008-12-19T21:38:00.000-05:002008-12-19T21:38:00.000-05:00Ah, but my brother Matt, by writing, "They (meanin...Ah, but my brother Matt, by writing, "They (meaning LGBT people) may also enter into the "holy union" of marriage if they so desire," you are being coy, if not flat-out deceptive. Which is exactly why I asked the question of clarification.<BR/><BR/>Don't be too surprised when your ordained wife is treated in a like manner in Kenya. It will be interesting - if not strangely entertaining - to watch.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22239605346117996052008-12-19T12:41:00.000-05:002008-12-19T12:41:00.000-05:00Hi Elizabeth+. That's not quite what I wrote. I di...Hi Elizabeth+. That's not quite what I wrote. I did not write that ACNA permits the "holy union" of two men or two women. I do not believe such unions can rightly be described as "holy".<BR/><BR/>I wrote: "They [meaning homosexual people] may also enter into the "holy union" of marriage if they so desire."<BR/><BR/>"Marriage", of course, being between one man and one woman. <BR/><BR/>If someone experiencing inborn homosexual impulses determines, by God's grace, to enter into marriage with a woman, there is nothing in the ACNA to prevent it nor ought there to be. <BR/><BR/>Matt+Matt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69494588498650629782008-12-19T12:04:00.000-05:002008-12-19T12:04:00.000-05:00Does anyone know if Matt's statement about the ACN...Does anyone know if Matt's statement about the ACNA accepting LGBT people entering into the 'holy union of marriage' - with people of the same sex - is true?<BR/><BR/>I certainly can't imagine that this doesn't mean - you can be homosexual but you have to be married to a person of another sex.<BR/><BR/>I'm having a hard time not believing that Matt is playing with words. <BR/><BR/>My verifying word is "stasto". At first, I heard in my head "fatso'. I guess I won't be drinking any eggnog at tonight's party.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50811912608833698582008-12-19T03:35:00.000-05:002008-12-19T03:35:00.000-05:00One for 2009....TECUSA will not get rid of BO33 (...One for 2009....TECUSA will not get rid of BO33 (preferring to keep it in order to stay in the AC but TECUSA will not expect anyone to have the integrity to respect it)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86567204403603845322008-12-18T10:56:00.000-05:002008-12-18T10:56:00.000-05:00hi Mark+I think you may have mis-graded yourself o...hi Mark+<BR/><BR/>I think you may have mis-graded yourself on a few sections...here is one example:<BR/><BR/>"The Common Cause Partnership will move toward being an ecclesiastical structure in which women are not ordained and gay people not welcomed to exercise ordained ministry or to vocations of holy union..."<BR/><BR/>Yes, the CCP did become the ACNA but, no, the ACNA does not forbid WO. The provincial constitution specifically permits jurisdictions within the ACNA to determine their own practice in this regard and many (CANA, Pittsburgh, the former Kenyan parishes) do practice WO.<BR/><BR/>Nor does the ACNA forbid homosexual people from holding ecclesial office or from entering into holy unions. Homosexual people may be ordained or consecrated so long as they commit to celibacy and to uphold orthodox teaching with regard to sexual behavior. <BR/><BR/>They may also enter into the "holy union" of marriage if they so desire. <BR/><BR/>Matt KennedyMatt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50489097389317082592008-12-18T10:51:00.000-05:002008-12-18T10:51:00.000-05:00I'm gong to give you an A- on it all, Mark. I wish...I'm gong to give you an A- on it all, Mark. I wish a couple of your "0" could have been "100".Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11622358803103789307noreply@blogger.com