tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post6222112835557612854..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The Task Force on Re-imaging; Its mission, "To boldly go where no one has gone before."Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70114993201259203942020-07-18T00:25:55.993-04:002020-07-18T00:25:55.993-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01788781981311850175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23898510532468196162013-12-18T10:00:34.947-05:002013-12-18T10:00:34.947-05:00No point discussing when the facts are unhelpful.
...No point discussing when the facts are unhelpful.<br /><br />Fortunately judges are no longer fooled by these manipulations.<br /><br />SCMSCMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81701235928145631132013-12-18T05:35:35.585-05:002013-12-18T05:35:35.585-05:00No point in discussing things with three initials....No point in discussing things with three initials.<br /><br />Pierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-56937874623394708432013-12-17T09:12:07.942-05:002013-12-17T09:12:07.942-05:00I'll put my money on the professional opinion ...I'll put my money on the professional opinion of Judge Ortbal and others who make a living knowing what terms like 'voluntary association' mean. <br /><br />Your document received the lackluster reception it deserved.<br /><br />And by the way, your claim that the 'authors' were not involved in litigation is false. Bishop Buchanon's name is on the court documents. Did you think we'd just ignore that fact?<br /><br />SCM<br /><br />SCMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31493190679761828152013-12-17T05:48:46.224-05:002013-12-17T05:48:46.224-05:00And your name is — ?
This is not my personal idio...And your name is — ?<br /><br />This is not my personal idiosyncratic opinion, by the way. Not rejected by progressives, either (huh?).<br /><br />Pierre WhalonPierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22875752264374081862013-12-16T20:58:46.668-05:002013-12-16T20:58:46.668-05:00Good luck in your ongoing advocacy of an enthusias...Good luck in your ongoing advocacy of an enthusiastic personal interpretation. One which progressives reject.<br /><br />We shall continue to watch the courts decide when they read the documents. As Ortbal effectively concluded in Quincy. "When one spends 900K for an 'expert witness' and invests 5 years to interpret and commend a probative reading, that alone says there is a problem with the documents/constitution itself."<br /><br />So it is. <br /><br />SCMSCMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85083437101724398302013-12-16T07:10:10.978-05:002013-12-16T07:10:10.978-05:00SCM, whoever you are,
The HoB did not suppress the...SCM, whoever you are,<br />The HoB did not suppress the term metropolitical, they wanted a better definition, which the final version of the Primer gave,<br />The Episcopal Church's General Convention is not a "voluntary association." Your local parish may be considered one from a purely legal viewpoint, but its clergy are in Orders. The diocese of which it is a part is not a voluntary association either. And the General Convention creates dioceses, so it is not a voluntary association either. The use of that term is what's odd.<br />Pierre WhalonPierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66255090380111900272013-12-14T07:26:41.812-05:002013-12-14T07:26:41.812-05:00SCM, whoever you are,
The HoB's comments are i...SCM, whoever you are,<br />The HoB's comments are in the final version. The fact that the General Convention acts as the final (or metropolitical) authority is affirmed.<br />As Bishop Hopkins' observation we quoted states, there is no such thing as an independent diocese. The concept is sheer nonsense in the Anglican way of being the Church. It is part of our catholic heritage, the local church of its region, presided by a bishop in synod. <br />While you are correct that "voluntary association" is a legal term, it is clear that, among all Anglican churches, the dioceses do not form a voluntary association. The Episcopal dioceses are all creatures of the General Convention, except for those founded in 1784 expressly for the purpose of sending Deputies to the Conventions of 1785 and 1786. In 1789, with the adoption of the Constitution, the clergy's conformity to it by 1790, and the fact that not one congregation in the land dissented, show that there never was a "voluntary association." Certainly the founders never intended one.<br /><br />As Bishop Hopkins said, the idea of "an independent diocese" is either an absurdity or it is a schismatical invention.<br /><br />Pierre WhalonPierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67975215746935203942013-12-13T20:56:14.052-05:002013-12-13T20:56:14.052-05:00'Voluntary association' is legal speak, an...'Voluntary association' is legal speak, and accurate -- as against the imaginings of some who would claim otherwise and write odd documents wherein GC is a Metropolitan(the HOB was not buying it).<br /><br />SCMSCMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13440929392867674502013-12-13T10:38:47.077-05:002013-12-13T10:38:47.077-05:00Pierre, The recent TREC letter does not use the te...Pierre, The recent TREC letter does not use the term. While we might wish everyone were aware that ACI has made "confederacy" a dirty word before one uses it, in the context of the July 2013 TREC document there is no hint of intended implication that it means "voluntary association" or that dioceses are "autonomous." It is a statement of how the dioceses worked together differently than today with the structure of Executive Council and Presiding Bishop's office and staff. It is not an ecclesial statement, although I will agree that it is a teachable moment to underscore that however the dioceses may work together ("context" and "structure" if you will) they do so within our Anglican ecclesial tradition.John B. Chiltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208312356775869565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-65817402628327349622013-12-13T02:24:03.784-05:002013-12-13T02:24:03.784-05:00John,
For confederacy, see http://reimaginetec.org...John,<br />For confederacy, see http://reimaginetec.org/july-2013-meeting-report/<br /><br />Structure for Dummies, II, 3rd paragraph. "Voluntary association" is ACI-speak.<br />PierrePierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1691648904754849152013-12-12T12:11:32.600-05:002013-12-12T12:11:32.600-05:00Pierre, Where are you picking up the phrases you h...Pierre, Where are you picking up the phrases you have in quotes: "confederacy go (sic) semi-autonomous dioceses" and "voluntary association of dioceses"? I don't see where TREC said such things.John B. Chiltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208312356775869565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63062792033493236132013-12-12T10:33:09.213-05:002013-12-12T10:33:09.213-05:00Jack Tull said...
Thank you Mark+ for your comment...Jack Tull said...<br />Thank you Mark+ for your comments. I believe that an important aspect of restructuring The Episcopal Church has to be centered around the local church and the ministries they are involved in. I believe that people are attracted to a church that does something. So, in a local church there should be programs more internal that strengthen our faith, care for members when they need help and build us up as the body of Christ. There should also be programs that are more external that care for people that are hurting on the local as well as the world wide level. To do these things the local church needs resources to help them. In our Re-Imagined Episcopal Church I would hope that we would provide a place where the local church could go to get one-on-one help in establishing their internal and external programs. This help would include suggestions as to existing programs that may be a good fit for that church and how to make the necessary contacts to get started. This Ministry Resource Center could also be available to help a diocese that may be looking to set up a diocesan wide program. Jack Tullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10046103714679780045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33614494196494235262013-12-12T01:47:15.221-05:002013-12-12T01:47:15.221-05:00Well said, Mark. In addition —
There will have to ...Well said, Mark. In addition —<br />There will have to be a "church wide structure." But what will it be? General Convention makes the decisions that are binding on all of us, though these are, in relation to the number of resolutions, few in number (canons, Prayer Book, budget...).<br />Who implements these? TREC wants a leaner Executive Council — good. The role of the Presiding Bishop and staff? They call for clearer lines of accountability — at last someone has pointed that need.<br />But I still want to know, what are the needs of the dioceses that the Church Center must meet because they cannot meet them for themselves? It has to do with maintaining unity in diversity, including ecumenical, inter-Anglican, and inter religious relations, of course. Also maintaining the canons and liturgical standards. And in general fostering the network that we already are, and need to nurture much further. What else?<br />Also, I strenuously object to TREC's wrong characterization of our governance as a "confederacy go semi-autonomous dioceses." We are not that, nor are we a "voluntary association of dioceses." Without a clear idea of the bases of our church's decision-making, I fear their imaginings will not have the clarity of vision that we need from them.<br />Pierre WhalonPierrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15443276631484221615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-7167274404012049352013-12-12T00:31:38.714-05:002013-12-12T00:31:38.714-05:00Ellen Tillotson--I'm afraid I find all this &q...Ellen Tillotson--I'm afraid I find all this "imagining" more than a little snarky toward the faithful folk who are trying to serve God in their homes, their workplaces and, sometimes, even in their churches and from their churches. I'm amazed at the people shoulder deep in the system who seem to have been blind to such faithfulness because it is local, quiet, world-changing and prayerful. And most of these folks have received precious little help from dioceses and wider church structures who have blamed them instead of helping--blamed by taking a larger and larger portion of income and offering fewer and fewer resources for developing mission and ministry locally, where it is most effective and most sustainable. Tip O'Neill had it right, baby--all politics, and the best mission--is local. I'm just sayin.' Thanks, Mark.Ellen+https://www.blogger.com/profile/15749720485014154714noreply@blogger.com