tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post7624404807123815108..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Late breaking news re charges against Bishop LawrenceMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6898542162358923942011-12-05T16:34:27.396-05:002011-12-05T16:34:27.396-05:00Thank you Brother David.
God bless you.
MsgrThank you Brother David.<br /><br />God bless you.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53969921899296603802011-12-05T16:30:34.114-05:002011-12-05T16:30:34.114-05:00The last time that Father Harris invited someone t...The last time that Father Harris invited someone to refrain from posting on his blog he had to start deleting the comments this person made in order for his wishes to be honored. I am in hope that he does not have to do that again.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-44898749414644298012011-12-05T16:13:12.958-05:002011-12-05T16:13:12.958-05:00You are an amusing man, Brother David. You tell me...You are an amusing man, Brother David. You tell me to go away, raise the topic again, and then tell me not to have the last word! 'Heads I win, tails you lose'.<br /><br />You want the last word? Then simply tell us all how a Diocese will fare if it does not agree to allow liturgical rites that are not agreed to by the BCP? Or, if the polity of TEC is altered, they do not go along with this? <br /><br />You believe this or that about TEC. Fine. You are entitled to an opinion, but not to facts. I don't know how the Church in your Province is structured, but clearly you do not know how TEC is structured. Dioceses have constitutions and canons. TEC has a constitution. GC intimations cannot premit what the Constitution disallows.<br /><br />By the way, Fr Weir was responding to questions I had raised. I did not realize he was breaking the rules of you and others by speaking of a topic I was enjoined silence around!<br /><br />God bless you! You are welcome to speak to the topic at hand as you have, and by doing so, to invite response. You are not the sargeant at arms!<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22659186406235334252011-12-05T15:36:21.982-05:002011-12-05T15:36:21.982-05:00It is sad Msgr, our host has asked you kindly, mor...It is sad Msgr, our host has asked you kindly, more than once, to stop posting and to create a blog of your own where you may continue to erect your straw men. And here you are, still posting.<br /><br />TEC is a hierarchical and synodical church. The ultimate voice in a syndical church is its highest synod. General Convention spoke when it authorized the pastoral response of bishops with jurisdiction, whose jurisdiction included states where legal same gender marriage existed. At the point in the future when the time has arrived the GC will authorize that the C&C be altered to facilitate the final decisions regarding marriage in TEC. Until then, you are just here to stir things up, against the wishes of the blog master.<br /><br />You raise a point that has never been an issue in TEC in the past. No ordained clergy of TEC has ever been conically required to administer sacraments, rites or rituals that violated their conscience. It shall not happen in the case of same gender marriage. Period. The most GC has mandated as the final synodical voice is to require that bishops of jurisdiction provide access to certain sacraments, rites and rituals, such as in the case of women's ordination.<br /><br />Please do not bother to get in the last word. Please honor the request of Father Mark and move on.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-82840730342645967172011-12-05T14:56:50.620-05:002011-12-05T14:56:50.620-05:00Thank you for your response in seeking to clarify ...Thank you for your response in seeking to clarify how a Diocese like MA can create a rite that is manifestly a departure from the BCP. It was of course said at the time that a GC intimation like the one that emerged was against the constitution of TEC.<br /><br />Messy indeed.<br /><br />But what of the scenario that will likely be the breaking point? Demanding conformity in dioceses in the name of 'justice' and the chaos this will wreak. +Henderson spoke of 'safe places' in SC I suspect precisely to file this away for future reference.<br /><br />Can you help us imagine how this is going to play out so that Dioceses can maintain the historic faith and order (constitutionality) of this Church?<br /><br />Do you envision a time when dioceses will have to be forced to comply with a new TEC teaching?<br /><br />It is only a matter of time. I'd be curious to hear how TEC will accommodate dioceses like SC, CFL, Dallas, W-TX and others, short of creating a new polity altogether (perhaps Sauls himself sees this is necessary).<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23188845656428340072011-12-05T12:24:36.249-05:002011-12-05T12:24:36.249-05:00I take the permission that General Convention gran...I take the permission that General Convention granted for Bishops in states that have civil marriage equality to be a bit like the liturgical materials that have been authorized along side the BCP. It is, like the situation in the CofE, a bit messy to have both the BCP and other authorized liturgical material. It is a reflection of where we are in our understanding of marriage to have both the BCP's definition and the emerging new understanding. That new understanding, like some of the approved liturgical material, may in time be found wanting, but I take that to be part of our process of discernment.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16413175856930138752011-12-05T10:09:13.326-05:002011-12-05T10:09:13.326-05:00Fr Weir
You have not responded to the issue raise...Fr Weir<br /><br />You have not responded to the issue raised earlier.<br /><br />If GC somehow goes around the constitutionality of the BCP and approves same-sex 'marriage' rites (after all, we already have this happening in MA, and Open Communion is also widely practiced, publically, though it is against the canons), what about Dioceses that will judge this not only unacceptable but also unconstitutional?<br /><br />Will they be forced to comply? How?<br /><br />That individuals and a parish or two in SC, e.g., might object to this, what about the constitution of both TEC and the Dioceses themselves. Rude comments about ones Bishop we will, like the poor, have always with us. <br /><br />The fact is that specific Dioceses will not allow this. <br /><br />And if they were forced, the Bishops would be in an impossible position. They would be defying their own canons and constitution, and for now, also the Constitution of TEC. And their people -- not a rude individual or several -- en masse would revolt. This is precisely where +ML is, but he is not alone. <br /><br />To say he is not 'friendly to TEC' only begs the question: what TEC are we speaking about? One with a Constitutionality, or one being created latterly in various times and places?<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86578578280113741192011-12-05T09:37:13.826-05:002011-12-05T09:37:13.826-05:00I am sorry to hear about vicious attacks on your B...I am sorry to hear about vicious attacks on your Bishop. Sounds like they were public, rather than sent in secret in the form of 87 pages of charges. ('I heard him say that TEC was like kudzu once.')<br /><br />Sad. <br /><br />As even Jim Naughton said, 'glad this sideshow is over.'<br /><br />Not our finest hour.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6856007071710240832011-12-04T21:42:53.654-05:002011-12-04T21:42:53.654-05:00I hope that every diocese will be a safe place for...I hope that every diocese will be a safe place for Episcopalians who disagree with their Bishop. We do have and have always had honest disagreements in the Episcopal Church about important matters of faith and practice and there has never been a good reason to demonize those with whom we disagree. I have, sadly, witness vicious verbal attacks on my Bishop by people who disagreed with one of his votes at General Convention. We are all made poorer by such actions.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86647598861775881762011-12-04T15:19:30.030-05:002011-12-04T15:19:30.030-05:00So 'safe place' refers to this development...So 'safe place' refers to this development? Failure to conduct a confirmation service due to the reasons given?<br /><br />Yes, that will take a huge chunk out of the total membership of the diocese.<br /><br />How big is the parish in question? 15 or so? Including those who did not give their names but filed charges against the Bishop?<br /><br />Yes, we need to be very careful that a 'safe space' is maintained for this group. I was concerned that +Henderson was referring to some other group and some other concern. All very hush hush, of course. But it's instead a confirmation service that is not happening this evening in Port Royal in the swamps of SC.<br /><br />That will really plunge the diocese into serious membership decline.<br /><br />Mountain meet molehill.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-10250542527313633882011-12-04T11:59:59.518-05:002011-12-04T11:59:59.518-05:00And is likely to continue to decline because its b...And is likely to continue to decline because its bishop, in his eagerness to shake off the bondage of the hierearchical model, has painted himself into the corner of congregationalism - every parish a free agent. <br /><br />Re Bishop Henderson's personal statement that <i>"I presently take the Bishop at his word, and hope that the safety he seeks for the apparent majority in his diocese within the larger Church will become the model for safety—a “safe place”—for those under his episcopal care who do not agree with the actions of South Carolina’s convention and/or his position on some of the issues of the Church"</i>, I post, verbatim & in full, the post from the webpage of <a href="http://www.scepiscopalians.com/" rel="nofollow">South Carolina Episcopalians</a> concerning Mark Lawrence's refusal to confirm new members of St Mark's Chapel, Beaufort.<br /><br /><i>"PORT ROYAL -- Bishop Lawrence abruptly canceled a scheduled Confirmation at St. Mark's Chapel near Beaufort this Sunday. SC Episcopalians has no idea why this has happened. Learn about St. Mark's<br /><br />"St. Mark's is a group of former parishioners from St. Helena’s Episcopal Church in Beaufort who have attempted to establish a traditional Episcopal Church congregation in Port Royal near Beaufort. Critics of Bishop Lawrence have complained that he will not recognize them because of their loyalty to the Episcopal Church.<br /><br />"The Bishop's surprising decision was relayed to members of St. Mark's by way of an electronic communication from their clergy Friday. This is the relevant text from their message.<br /><br /><b>"Dear members and friends of St. Mark's Chapel,<br /> <br />"For reasons that go beyond the capabilities of email and to make a long story short, Confirmation of St. Mark's' confirmands is being postponed.<br /><br />"The Bishop will be with us for the 4 pm service which will include an opportunity for us to 'reaffirm our baptismal vows,' but no confirmations will take place. He says that there are canonical, pastoral and political dimensions to his decision and that we need to respect his thoughts on the subject. We look forward to seeing you at St. Mark's on Sunday."</b></i>Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52229409470742160582011-12-04T09:27:56.940-05:002011-12-04T09:27:56.940-05:00It is a very simple thing to do, Fr Harris. Just g...It is a very simple thing to do, Fr Harris. Just go to where the misreporting began, and see the thread from there. <br /><br />SC is the only Diocese in Province 4 that gained membership over the period 2000-2009. <br /><br />In 2010 it lost a parish and a very big one. Due to the conviction that TEC was moving away from classical anglicanism.<br /><br />To say that SC leads the decline is misrepresentation ("currently tops the table of dioceses with declining membership").<br /><br />So you want your blog to hold up such misrepresentations and for me to start my own and leave?<br /><br />Yes, this is truly sad.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43432695623450701502011-12-03T22:34:35.371-05:002011-12-03T22:34:35.371-05:00Msgr...yes...it saddened me too. Lapinbizarre may ...Msgr...yes...it saddened me too. Lapinbizarre may read the figures differently from you, but he early on said what I said, "If you have a blog point us there. If you don't think of starting one."Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15277241759747287102011-12-03T19:18:07.528-05:002011-12-03T19:18:07.528-05:00Msgr, it seems to me with your multiple identities...Msgr, it seems to me with your multiple identities, your insistence on anonymity, your evasiveness, your refusal to stand publicly by your strong opinions, you are in no position to impugn anyone's integrity.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-49863454224545011602011-12-03T18:51:31.037-05:002011-12-03T18:51:31.037-05:00Fr Harris
Your comments sadden me. I thought you ...Fr Harris<br /><br />Your comments sadden me. I thought you were of better stuff.<br /><br />Thank you for not allowing misrepresentation of SC go unchallenged. One has hope. <br /><br />When you call out someone like Rabbit for his prodigal account of facts/reality, we will know we are in a church and not a fan club or echo chamber,<br /><br /><br />yrs in Christ Jesus<br /><br />MessengerMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-32578651386845402962011-12-03T18:40:47.813-05:002011-12-03T18:40:47.813-05:00Msgr...time to get a life, preferably somewhere el...Msgr...time to get a life, preferably somewhere else. You regularly take any thread and push it over to a thread about how awful TEC is mostly, and how the faithful remnant is doing a great job and everyone else is failing.<br /><br />You have had several important things to say but they have been lost in your need to rant on.<br /><br />BTW I am going to try to take on one of your "issues" tomorrow. But now, I am going to dinner with friends. Beats reading your comments.<br /><br />Direct us to your blog, but don't take up more space on this one.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48964146880130516052011-12-03T18:22:11.489-05:002011-12-03T18:22:11.489-05:00Makes the growth in places like Diocese of SC all ...Makes the growth in places like Diocese of SC all the more remarkable during a difficult decade, given the cultural challenge.<br /><br />There are some remarkable growth examples out there, INSIDE Tec. <br /><br />Why not ask how they are doing this?<br /><br />Answer: classical liturgy, effective preaching, historical Christianity with intellectual seriousness, and a lot of hard work. I could name <br /><br />St George's Nashville<br />Church of the Incarnation Dallas<br />The Cathedral in Birmingham AL<br />St Martin's Houston<br /><br />Not one of these churches grows because of, but rather in spite of, TEC inclinations to become a new progressive american denomination.<br /><br />They grow because of the anglican tradition brought alive.<br /><br />Msgr<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69533862290167512182011-12-03T17:51:25.253-05:002011-12-03T17:51:25.253-05:00Here's something to ponder, the drop out rate ...Here's something to ponder, the drop out rate from Christianity, all of it from fundamentalist to liberal, among people aged 15 to 29 is 60%.<br /><br />http://www.tavissmileyradio.com/120211/david_kinnaman.html<br /><br />That should give us all pause.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-90881516772122047482011-12-03T17:50:45.825-05:002011-12-03T17:50:45.825-05:00To put it differently:
Every single diocese in Pr...To put it differently:<br /><br />Every single diocese in Province 4 lost membership between 2000 and 2009 -- some by quite sizeable percentages.<br /><br />Except for SC.<br /><br />For you to describe SC as leading decline categories is not only misreporting, it is prevarication.<br /><br />An honourable thing to do would be to apologise.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70423322334966975292011-12-03T17:43:00.077-05:002011-12-03T17:43:00.077-05:00Dear Mr Rabbit
Thank you for the link to the publ...Dear Mr Rabbit<br /><br />Thank you for the link to the public statistics. It should prove a good way for people to see your misrepresentation.<br /><br />It shows that SC gained 1200 members over the 2000-2009 period. <br /><br />What other dioceses did this?<br /><br />Then, due to TEC heading in the direction that it did, St Andrews Mt Pleasant left.<br /><br />So in the single year 2010 there was an obvious decline -- St Andrews was the equivalent of Christ Church Plano. The largest parish in the diocese by a long way.<br /><br />Best regards<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30966870534953502842011-12-03T17:35:58.629-05:002011-12-03T17:35:58.629-05:00As I said, Msgr Sammy, "not the sort of thing...As I said, Msgr Sammy, "not the sort of thing your type does".Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51063381002239356552011-12-03T17:34:09.303-05:002011-12-03T17:34:09.303-05:00Now let's see, Rabbit.
You claimed that 2007...Now let's see, Rabbit. <br /><br />You claimed that 2007-2010 SC declined.<br /><br />It didn't decline in the years 2007-2009. <br /><br />My point was that the decline in 2010 was to do with St Andrews. <br /><br />So your claim of decline in the years 2007-2009 was false.<br /><br />Anyone is welcome to see the statistics. They are there for viewing. The idea that SC has declined and leads the decline (I believe that was your claim) is false. It lost a major parish. In 2010.<br /><br />The honourable thing would be for you to admit that you misreported. <br /><br />Msgr<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17246646677370534262011-12-03T17:25:52.059-05:002011-12-03T17:25:52.059-05:00Actually, msgr, it's been a downhill trend sin...Actually, msgr, <a href="http://www.episcopalchurch.org/documents/ASA_by_ProvinceDiocese2000-2010.pdf" rel="nofollow">it's been a downhill trend since 2004</a>. Appreciate a retraction on the spurious "false reporting" libel, but honourable amends is not the sort of thing your type does, is it?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40421522641924223842011-12-03T17:03:05.559-05:002011-12-03T17:03:05.559-05:00Nothing further to say about your false reporting,...Nothing further to say about your false reporting, Rabbit?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6980246056036959032011-12-03T15:50:30.473-05:002011-12-03T15:50:30.473-05:00"Four legs good ............."<i>"Four legs good ............."</i>Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.com