tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post7993377411569204966..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Bishop MacPherson to Tanzania.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-12160434018003401412007-01-30T18:16:00.000-05:002007-01-30T18:16:00.000-05:00And the relationship between gluttony and pride, o...And the relationship between gluttony and pride, on the one hand - and the self-sacrifice and faithfulness involved in a life of commitment to another human being, on the other, would be....?<br /><br />(I'm sorry to tell you, Phil, but that argument sounds increasingly hollow and disconnected from reality in an era when so many people know gay individuals and couples and what our lives are actually like. The comparisons you're making simply don't hold water for many people any longer - because they don't make any rational sense. Going forward, that's going to be even more true - and it's not because we're all in thrall to the dread "spirit of the age." The fact is, people have begun to recognize the truth of something that they hadn't realized before.)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-7303192229233476142007-01-29T22:37:00.000-05:002007-01-29T22:37:00.000-05:00Denbeau (et. al.)
I beieve what we are seeing amo...Denbeau (et. al.)<br /><br />I beieve what we are seeing among those who support the blessing of same sex unions is a reverse of "donatism"<br /><br />"Donatism" is a heresy that states only the moraly good (or perfect) can be leaders in the Church. Only those who live without sin can be administrators of the Grace given in the Sacraments.<br /><br />The reverse of that heresy is that because we see God's blessing in the lives of people who are in homosexual relatinships and we see evidence of grace in the lives of those involved in same sex relationships, therefore God must bless those relationships.<br /><br />This is also a logical fallacy.<br /><br />If receiving grace were evidence that what was once called "sin" is not blessed, then gluttony would not be a sin because I have experienced much grace in my life and gluttony is one of my besetting sins. Likewise, I am often guilty of pride and yet I still receive God's grace abundantly! Is pride, therefore, not a sin for me?<br /><br />Sinners still receive God's grace and I am glad they do so. But the evidence of grace or blessing does not mean that a behavior is no longer sinful.<br /><br />YBIC,<br />Phil Snyderplsdeaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039800243898137584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13580931189022113912007-01-29T09:33:00.000-05:002007-01-29T09:33:00.000-05:00RevLois, Boy do I feel for you. You go right ahead...RevLois, Boy do I feel for <b>you</b>. You go right ahead and leave that breviary there on the floor until <i>you're</i> ready to pick it up. Wish the clergy at my pretty-progressive parish had the same guts (wonderful people that they are, of course). Wonderful post!<br /><br />bls, Good point about the buffering effect of "liberals" in the AC. Please, let's <b>do</b> put 'em in a locked room together. Preferably armed with cheese graters ;-><br /><br />And welcome denbeau. I'm afraid you'll find out pretty quickly that the extremist types <i>don't</i> have room in "their"* church for you. Better develop a thick skin ;)<br /><br />* Irony intendedDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70271875972527230762007-01-29T08:54:00.000-05:002007-01-29T08:54:00.000-05:00"Um, carl: I believe denbeau is citing one "Jesus ..."Um, carl: I believe denbeau is citing one "Jesus Christ" as his/her authority! ;-)"<br /><br />That's all well and good, JCF, but what exactly does it mean to cite Jesus Christ as an authority in the absense of Scripture? How do you know what He wants? Without the Scritures, we know nothing about Him. If you do not accept the testimony of Scripture as reliable, then what testimony will you accept? A burning in the bosom? An angel of light?<br /><br />When I was in the military, I never once received a verbal order from my Wing Commander. Even so, I was accountable because his orders were written down, and came with the authority of his signature. Could I have said: "I will not obey his order. The clerk must have typed it wrong, because my commander would never give an order that offends me. I will decide what he meant to say, and I will follow that order instead." Having done so, could I still cite him as my authority? Or would I have simply substituted my authority for his? <br /><br />carlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-833430804100336802007-01-29T00:41:00.000-05:002007-01-29T00:41:00.000-05:00So I think that the interests of Gay & Lesbian per...<i>So I think that the interests of Gay & Lesbian persons will be pretty well represented by Mrs. Schori.</i><br /><br />Give me a break, Craig: NO ONE represents LGBT Episcopalians, but ourselves. The issue isn't whether <i>Presiding Bishop</i> Jefferts Schori can speak for us Episcopalians: among the Primates, she (and she ALONE) can.<br /><br />The issue is among all the OTHER "Instruments of Unity", and the various commissions assembled by them: there, HETEROSEXUALS (bishops, clerical and lay) are abundantly represented. LGBTs (out ones), not at all! >:-/<br /><br />*****<br /><br /><i>However, I cannot sanction their sexual relationship nor can I ask God to bless it because Scripture teaches that God does not bless it. Tradition has always stated that homosexual sex (in any context) is less that God's ideal for us and, so, the Church cannot bless it.</i><br /><br />This is just fundamentally <b>erroneous</b>, Phil (I remember you from Salty Vicar's, so I know I've said this to you before: Scripture says NOTHING about "homosexual sex", and any purported "Tradition" about it is <150 years old, and FAR from being any kind of consensus. Rather, "proposition and reaction"). The fact that you continue to REPEAT it, having been corrected, only means that you are now <i>spreading lies</i>. Call that a "harangue"---but, so help me, it IS the God's honest <i>truth</i>.<br /><br />*****<br /><br />Um, carl: I believe denbeau is citing one "Jesus Christ" as his/her authority! ;-)<br /><br />*****<br /><br />Prayers for ++KJS's witness (and safety!) in Tanzania: that Christ's Gospel she preaches, may be <b>heard!</b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86066834749934914952007-01-28T22:40:00.000-05:002007-01-28T22:40:00.000-05:00Carl,
Excellent points, and I accept your warning...Carl,<br /><br />Excellent points, and I accept your warning (and possibly your implied criticism). And a good example of why I want to be in the same church with those who disagree with me on some of these issues; they illuminate, teach, and challenge. If I worship and study only with those who are in complete agreement with me, I will tend not to grow at all. <br />As I said in an earlier post, I'm not a theologian; I'm a businessman. The following analogy may seem trite, but I mean it sincerely. When I felt the need for a spiritual home, after many years of not being actively involved, I was like a shopper in a theology store. I had a sense of what I was looking for, but didn't know exactly where to find it. I spent some time studying very seriously with Buddhists, but as much as I admired what they had to offer, I still felt something missing at the core. As an 'outsider', it was the nativity stories that brought me to Christianity; not that I saw them as literally true, but their presence and importance in the Gospels spoke to me about the unconditional love of a mother for her child as symbolic of God's love for all creation. The importance of this image of Madonna and Child throughout western art only reinforces the image of the vulnerable God as child, and the example of maternal love as the closest we can - as humans - come to understand the God of love.<br />But I have digressed; this is what brought me to Christianity. As a 'consumer in the theology store', can I listen to my heart and my discernment, and say 'this tradition is as close as I can find to the divine, as I understand it?', and accept that there will still be differences between what I truly believe and the offering being made? Or must I completely accept what this tradition tells me - being the best fit I can find, yet not in complete alignment with what I feel to be true?<br />Carl, I don't know the answer; I don't even pretend to know the answer. I only know what my heart tells me, and what I feel (misguided as I may be) that the Spirit tells me, and that is that love - unconditional, forgiving, encompassing love - is never wrong.<br />denbeauAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40524116435517241352007-01-28T15:23:00.000-05:002007-01-28T15:23:00.000-05:00Something just struck me.
It will be really int...Something just struck me. <br /><br />It will be <I>really</i> interesting to watch what happens after the liberals are gone from the Anglican Communion.<br /><br />Because I can't quite imagine right-wing Anglo-Catholics finding much agreement - about much of anything except homosexuality and perhaps women's ordination - with right-wing Evangelicals. In actual fact, the liberals are what holds the thing together; we're the buffer between these two groups who'd be scratching each others' eyes out normally. (Come to think of it, perhaps putting them all together in one room isn't such a bad idea, after all. Maybe it could provide a little hint of what's to come?)blshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627725321531151309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6679012347104108452007-01-28T10:27:00.000-05:002007-01-28T10:27:00.000-05:00denbeau
You said :
"The central teachings for me...denbeau<br /><br />You said :<br /><br />"The central teachings for me are the the two great commandments"<br /><br />By what authority do you consider these to be commandments?<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />"I view the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as I view the texts of the other traditions; as works of committed followers of the traditions, but followers who were subject to human error, the political infighting of their time, all followed by bad translation."<br /><br />If so, the commandments to which you refer are products of the same human error, infighting, and bad translation. Why then do these particular words possess authority to compel obedience? <br /><br />I fear your answer will be something along the lines of "Because it seems reasonable to me this is what God would require." If so, then you have reduced Scripture to a mirror, and it simply reflects your own image. But God is not a man, and does not think like a man. This is the principle objection conservatives have to your approach to Scripture.<br /><br />You can't have it both ways. You can't have an authoritative Word but only so long as you decide get to decide which parts actually possess authority.<br /><br />carlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-55757029443287629612007-01-28T01:48:00.000-05:002007-01-28T01:48:00.000-05:00Phil,
I came to Christianity later in life, after...Phil,<br /><br />I came to Christianity later in life, after some time exploring other spiritual traditions. As a result of this process, I view the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as I view the texts of the other traditions; as works of committed followers of the traditions, but followers who were subject to human error, the political infighting of their time, all followed by bad translation. I recognize that this isn't your position. I value the input of those who have a more conservative opinion, and those who take scripture more literally; I have specifically written Brad Drell to tell him how much I value his insight ... but it's not my insight. I try to look into scripture to hear the voice of Jesus, with the meaning and spirit that he spoke. The central teachings for me are the the two great commandments, the transcendence of the love of God, and the tradition of commensality. But my understanding - which I know is not the understanding of others - rejects a narrow interpretation of the Levitical rules. In the healing of the centurion's slave, Jesus recognized love and commitment, and healed the slave without any judgment of the relationship between them. I don't expect to change your mind on this; in fact, I appreciate your response, because it's by challenging, praying, and seeking the truth that we move forward. I only ask, can we continue in the same church? Is there room in your church for me?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-460467887193782832007-01-27T20:39:00.000-05:002007-01-27T20:39:00.000-05:00Marshall says "I continue to pray daily that God m...Marshall says "I continue to pray daily that God might turn the hearts of those committed to schism back to reconciliation."<br /><br />Me, too. This means I pray for VGR, Schori, and all those who by their actions tear the fabric of communion, as the Primates warned, at the deepest level.--JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-9661563747197553252007-01-27T15:29:00.000-05:002007-01-27T15:29:00.000-05:00There is still much mystery about this meeting. Wh...There is still much mystery about this meeting. Why, after all, is Bishop Duncan included? His position is well known. What is less well know is the position (positions, really) of the other 90% of The Episcopal Church. Bishop MacPherson's position—whatever that might be—does <i>not</i> represent all of that 90%. Then, of course, there are the priests, deacons, and laypeople, whose opinions, apparently, are of no interest at all to the self-important primates.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85471241405668541932007-01-27T15:28:00.000-05:002007-01-27T15:28:00.000-05:00Ever since General Convention of 2003, the next me...Ever since General Convention of 2003, the next meeting was going to lead to the big schism (maybe I am exagerating, but I don't think so -- go back & look at earlier comments form various pundits & on various blogs). So far, lots of little sniping things (but AMiA was before CANA, so it wasn't just GenCon 2003, was it?) but nothing irrevocable. Some of the primates say that they will refuse to meet with ++Katharine but the ABC says she's coming & they decide that they can meet with her after all. Maybe this will be decisive, but I suspect that there will be a lot of talk & strutting & nothing will really change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-56642435653034535692007-01-27T15:16:00.000-05:002007-01-27T15:16:00.000-05:00Oh yes, Revlois! You expressed so well what I do ...Oh yes, Revlois! You expressed so well what I do cling to! <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />AnnieAnniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16953544682005776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20302635336214638472007-01-27T11:10:00.000-05:002007-01-27T11:10:00.000-05:00I wish the archbishop had invited a bishop of colo...I wish the archbishop had invited a bishop of color to represent EC-USA. It might help to have someone other than a white eurocentric male represent our church.<br /><br />Fundamentally, I think this whole conflict in the Anglican Communion is a conflict between the old, white, dying churches of the west, and the church of the two-thirds world which is asserting it's rights. God hath cast down the mighty from their thrones, and we in EC-USA don't like it. <br /><br />Will we have the courage and humility and repent and listen to our African and Asian brothers and sisters?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84504763877928443022007-01-27T09:03:00.000-05:002007-01-27T09:03:00.000-05:00denbeau: I am pleased that some of your friends h...denbeau: I am pleased that some of your friends have found a measure of joy in this life. However, I cannot sanction their sexual relationship nor can I ask God to bless it because Scripture teaches that God does not bless it. Tradition has always stated that homosexual sex (in any context) is less that God's ideal for us and, so, the Church cannot bless it.<br /><br />Leonardo, When you present some logical arguments, I will respond. All I read from your comment is hatred and anger and what appears to be a willful misunderstanding of my comment. I believe that the actions of TEC, in blessing same sex unions and ordaining people involved in sex outside of marriage, are causing schism in the Anglican Communion. I further believe that Presiding Bishop Shori should listen at Tanzania rather than lecture. I am pleased that the Archbishop of Cantebury sees that TEC is in trouble and needs to have a couple of other voices to speak and listen at the Primates meeting and I am pleased with his choice of +Duncan and +MacPherson.<br /><br />YBIC,<br />Phil Snyder<br /><br />ps. If you wish to continue a <b>conversation</b> rather than a harangue, then you can email me at plsdeacon@yahoo.complsdeaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039800243898137584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11134093170441505362007-01-27T02:02:00.000-05:002007-01-27T02:02:00.000-05:00the schismatic acts of blessing same sex unions
A...<i>the schismatic acts of blessing same sex unions</i><br /><br />Anathema! >:-0<br /><br />*****<br /><br />I rely on your hope in Bp. MacPherson, Mark.<br /><br /><i>Prayers for ALL to Tanzania</i>: may those going for good ACT ON that good, may those going for evil be converted---may we ALL be converted...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23407005618962673812007-01-27T01:26:00.000-05:002007-01-27T01:26:00.000-05:00... no voice from Gay and Lesbian persons.
Well, ...<i>... no voice from Gay and Lesbian persons.</i><br /><br />Well, I wouldn't worry an awful lot about that, at least, Mark. I remember it was at an Integrity meeting here in Vegas between GC03 and the Diocesan Convention that I first heard <a href="http://www.nvdiocese.org/COMMITTEES-COMMISSIONS/INTEGRITY/_IntegrityDir.html">Susan Craw</a> mention that Mrs. Schori would make a wonderful PB. It seemed like what we'd call out here a long shot at the time, but you never know.<br /><br />So I think that the interests of Gay & Lesbian persons will be pretty well represented by Mrs. Schori.Craig Goodrichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08624767388702032189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13638572349274987552007-01-27T00:44:00.000-05:002007-01-27T00:44:00.000-05:00Blessings to All.
Thanks for the incite Mark+. I ...Blessings to All.<br />Thanks for the incite Mark+. I couldn't find much on +McPherson on the PEP chat. I'm curious if the ABC is hoping to find a few friends in the middle that might move to the right. I feel by not inviting a progressive bishop it looks if +++Rowan is looking to like up the Windsor bishops, network bishops and moderates. I hope I worded this clear enough.<br />Thoughts anyone?<br /><br />BobinSwPAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88812736228689095612007-01-26T22:36:00.000-05:002007-01-26T22:36:00.000-05:00phil, since Mark posted it some time ago, I watch ...phil, since Mark posted it some time ago, I watch the Chris Bliss routine daily, almost as a meditation.<br />My Christ, the Jesus that I understand, and who I look to for direction in my daily life as much as I look to for salvation, is about love; overwhelming love, beyond comprehension. I am a straight, white male, but several of my closest friends are gay; one of them is my minister, who is in long term committed relationship. I am a layperson, completely untrained in theology. But a theology that denies the love and joy that my friends have for each other is beyond my comprehension. A theology that says that love; selfless, compassionate love, is ever wrong, cannot be my theology. If this is the path to schism, I will hold my Jesus and my friends in my heart, and I will walk that road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63100952635806258382007-01-26T17:43:00.000-05:002007-01-26T17:43:00.000-05:00Marshall (et. al.): I too pray that God will bend...Marshall (et. al.): I too pray that God will bend the hearts of those who are "committed to schism back to reconciliation." I pray that those who support the schismatic acts of blessing same sex unions and ordaining people engaged in sex outside of marriage will repent and return to the Anglican Communion and the Church.<br /><br />I am heartened that +Duncan and +MacPherson are going to meet with the primates and I hope that +Shori goes to listen rather than lecture.<br /><br />YBIC,<br />Phil Snyderplsdeaconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18039800243898137584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78168596757004125562007-01-26T16:54:00.000-05:002007-01-26T16:54:00.000-05:00It's okay, Annie. We're still here with you. I wen...It's okay, Annie. We're still here with you. I went to read Evening Prayer an hour ago, and as I started the psalm, I quit, and I cried out, and I slammed my Order of St. Helena's Breviary on the table, and then I threw it with all my might onto the floor. And there it lies. <br /><br />But one of these days I know I'll pick it up again. Rowan, who I once knew, and Bob Duncan, who I once knew, and all the primates who don't know me or you, might be able to cast us into the outer darkness of the institution, but they cannot ever, ever take Jesus away from us. They cannot ever, ever take away our faith, and for all their claims that we are not Christians, or we have started a new religion, or we can't say what it is in which we believe in a way they find acceptable, for all that, they can never, ever take from us the salvation won for us by our Lord Jesus Christ, and they can never, ever take from us or deny us the truth that we hold in our hearts and which we proclaim with our worship and in our lives and even in our bodies, male, female, gay, lesbian, straight, black, white, red, yellow, brown, whole or broken. And that truth is this: that Jesus has not left us. That in us Jesus has important things to show the world about himself and God. We are still in him and he in us. And in him we are in communion even with those who would cast us aside. So fear not. We are one.<br />Lois KeenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53972003208067008672007-01-26T15:26:00.000-05:002007-01-26T15:26:00.000-05:00I'm trying to remember if I had any hope--ever.I'm trying to remember if I had any hope--ever.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16953544682005776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-37231230869268243132007-01-26T15:12:00.000-05:002007-01-26T15:12:00.000-05:00Mark,
I am not sure, is this the end of the begin...Mark,<br /><br />I am not sure, is this the end of the begining or the begining of the end? Either way, the communion of saints has to be very dissapointing to the Spirit. ;;sigh;;<br /> <br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91801321325018687572007-01-26T14:01:00.000-05:002007-01-26T14:01:00.000-05:00Might progressive groups within African provinces ...Might progressive groups within African provinces get the same right of representation? <br /><br />RRRaspberry Rabbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00813644230683029700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34731939373189626762007-01-26T13:31:00.000-05:002007-01-26T13:31:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous...please...please...identify yourse...Dear Anonymous...please...please...identify yourself if only with a set of initials. I don't want to strike your comments, but I do need to be able to distinguish between writers. Even Anonymous 12 will do. So, sign off somehow. thanks, MarkMark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.com