tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post8364753817875320354..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Fear is not an option: Sudan and a response.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39928376087659822202008-07-29T08:06:00.000-04:002008-07-29T08:06:00.000-04:00Counterlight: What happened to Matthew Shepard wa...Counterlight: What happened to Matthew Shepard was horrible, terrible, and tragic. By ignoring other horrible, terrible, and tragic acts toward Sudanese Anglicans, however, you show no honor to his memory. Not at all. Furthermore, Matthew Shepard would not have been helped by the knowledge that his priest was gay; nor would a protest that he was legally married have benefited him.<BR/><BR/>Yes, no doubt, if you held hands with another man walking down the street, you would encounter odd looks, be called nasty names, and maybe even get beat up. And that's bad, and I'm not saying it isn't. I'm all for the equal protection of gays and lesbians under law. But if you think that's the same as what's happening to Christians in Sudan, you are woefully uninformed.<BR/><BR/>nlnh: Frankly, I don't know any radical Islamists, and don't know if that's what they are in Sudan. Do you? If the Sudanese feel our position on sexuality is contributing to their problem, I think that has to be seriously reckoned with, not dismissed. Maybe they're wrong. But how can we assume that?<BR/><BR/>If these attitudes are common in TEC, the global South really is better off without us.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91537900665917197372008-07-26T10:45:00.000-04:002008-07-26T10:45:00.000-04:00Anne Fontaine, reporting on bishops' blogs at Epis...Anne Fontaine, reporting on bishops' blogs at Episcopal Café, says of Bishop Iker "He is on sabbatical and he and his wife have their grandchildren along". Looks like Jack Iker is one of your "Wimps", Jim of Michigan. Any info on the sleeping arrangements of the evidently easily-bored Bishop of Pittsburgh before he decamped early once again for easier surroundings?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2910010282429689992008-07-26T08:57:00.000-04:002008-07-26T08:57:00.000-04:00rb, do you honestly believe that radical Islamists...rb, do you honestly believe that radical Islamists would suddenly cease to be violent if Gene Robinson resigned?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-42634194035395406722008-07-26T08:26:00.000-04:002008-07-26T08:26:00.000-04:00"Exactly how many Sudanese Anglicans should die fo..."Exactly how many Sudanese Anglicans should die for Gene Robinson? It's one thing to call people to sacrifice their lives for something they believe. It's another matter altogether to do so for something they don't believe in.<BR/>Fear may not be an option. But it's not your lives that are on the line."<BR/><BR/>How many Matthew Shepards must die to accomodate Sudanese prejudices? Our lives are very much on the line.<BR/>Don't believe me? Try this little experiment that I always suggest. Find a friend of the same gender as yourself, and walk down any street of your town while holding his/her hand and see what happens.<BR/><BR/>That one out-and-proud Sudanese gay man whose blog I linked to above seems very much alive and quite fearless.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62018074066963561282008-07-26T07:08:00.000-04:002008-07-26T07:08:00.000-04:00I can't help but notice the comment from the Archb...I can't help but notice the <A HREF="http://www.anglicansunited.com/2008/07/lambeth_report_6_tuesday_after.html" REL="nofollow">comment from the Archbishop of Sudan</A> that you do <B>not</B> address:<BR/><BR/><I><B>This issue of homosexuality in the Anglican Communion has a very serious effect in my country. We are called ‘infidels’ by the Moslems. That means that they will do whatever they can against us to keep us from damaging the people of our country. They challenge our people to convert to Islam and leave the infidel Anglican Church. When our people refuse, sometimes they are killed. These people are very evil and mutilate and harm our people. I am begging the Communion on this issue so no more of my people will be killed.</B></I><BR/><BR/>I think this would be sufficient motivation for the Archbishop's remarks, and you can stop speculating about power-grabbing and the usual nasty things you assume about archbishops and primates that don't agree with you.<BR/><BR/>You seem to ask a lot from the rest of the Anglican Communion so you can affirm the clergy status and sexual unions of American homosexuals. It is certainly interesting as well that you seem to think that by affirming the clergy status and sexual unions of American homosexuals, you are somehow helping homosexuals in Africa. I find that most unlikely.<BR/><BR/>Exactly how many Sudanese Anglicans should die for Gene Robinson? It's one thing to call people to sacrifice their lives for something they believe. It's another matter altogether to do so for something they <B>don't</B> believe in.<BR/><BR/>Fear may not be an option. But it's not your lives that are on the line.RBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16752701681681717163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1280664355755671032008-07-26T01:04:00.000-04:002008-07-26T01:04:00.000-04:00Lisa at My Manner of Life has written so movingly ...Lisa at <A HREF="http://my-manner-of-life.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">My Manner of Life</A> has written so movingly about all this: her relationship to Archbp. Deng and the people of the Sudan, and feelings of betrayal at the former's condemnation.<BR/><BR/>As she says, <B>"Women are CHATTEL in the Sudan"</B> (while visiting Episcopalians like herself held their tongues), yet the Archbishop would lecture TEC???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23279239726271915962008-07-25T18:28:00.000-04:002008-07-25T18:28:00.000-04:00I have met the archbishop. Our diocise (Chicago) ...I have met the archbishop. Our diocise (Chicago) has a sister relationship with his former diocise of Renk and our parish has a sister relationship with one of its parishes (St. John Malut.) He has eaten my food at the parish and shared coffee with me at a diocian convention.<BR/><BR/>ABp Daniel is amazingly charismatic. He does not enter a room, he commands it. He is a very bright, very educated man and if anything, his wife may be a bit more impressive. She is a tough, committed and charming woman.<BR/><BR/>ABp Daniel's story is his to tell, not mine, but he has walked the tough road in Sudan. He is not someone to be dismissed lightly.<BR/><BR/>All of that said, I suggest we all should realize what he and the Sudanesse bishops said. It is nothing more than a distelate of the Windsor fiction without the British doubletalk. Read what Bp. Wright said about the Americans being at the event, and then read what ABp. Daniel said. The archbishop is saying exactly the same things: straight out.<BR/><BR/>I actually agree that TEC should leave the conference. Not as some sort of penance but because we need to follow the Spirit where we think it is leading us, and if other provinces see that same light, share the road with them. The Anglican Communion was an interesting idea but it is time to move on I think.<BR/><BR/>We can offer to maintain sister relationships with diocese and provinces that wish them. But to allow ourselves to be drawn into the net of the fifth instrument of unity is simply the wrong thing to do. <BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66884856973762461592008-07-25T09:01:00.000-04:002008-07-25T09:01:00.000-04:00reailst, Deng does not have an earned doctorate.He...reailst, Deng does not have an earned doctorate.<BR/><BR/>He has an honorary one, given to him by his friends in Virginia whom he just knifed in the back.<BR/><BR/>But even if Deng did have an earned doctorate, that does not necessarily make him infallible. Let's not fall into the fallacy of credentialism: plenty of fools have advanced degrees and plenty of fine people never went to college at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77447757672302884072008-07-25T02:52:00.000-04:002008-07-25T02:52:00.000-04:00The guy has not said anything that +Durham or +Dun...The guy has not said anything that +Durham or +Duncan or +Rochester on the theological issues.......I know people want to avoid the issue and bring in emotion etc but the fact is that TEC won't succeed in getting its innovations accepted while not convincing many that what Lambeth 1.10 calls "incompatible with scripture" is in fact HOLY<BR/><BR/>(Dr Deng earned his pHD in theology (unlike some in TEC)....please don't patronise him because he is an African)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64510831292159997302008-07-25T00:13:00.000-04:002008-07-25T00:13:00.000-04:00I should hope no one has "treated you like childre...I should hope no one has "treated you like children", Jim. <BR/><BR/>While children are (naturally, developmentally) lacking in knowledge, they are <I>learning all the time</I>.<BR/><BR/>You, on the other hand, are <I>willfully ignorant</I>, repudiating opportunities to learn---say, of the <B>blessedness of +Gene Robinson's covenant with Mark Andrew</B>---at every turn. You presume to know <I>God's Mind</I> on sin---having none other the same Scripture and Tradition as does the democratic-majority of TEC---and then presume <I>God's Judgment</I> on your brothers and sisters. Year, after sorry year, after sorry year.<BR/><BR/>That's *nothing* like what a child would do, thank God.<BR/><BR/>Go in <I>peace</I>, Jim. Believe in the Gospel, and be saved. Quit fighting the Reign of God, and oh---get off my Michigan neck, w/ your same-sex marriage ban? Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25775894607974058912008-07-24T21:22:00.000-04:002008-07-24T21:22:00.000-04:00Hhhmmm, so no gay or lesbian has come forward to b...Hhhmmm, so no gay or lesbian has come forward to bring their existence to ++Deng's attention. Now, why would that be? Maybe, just maybe, it's the death penalty that's in place for gay people (although they cut lesbians slack and only give them 100 lashes for the first three offenses).The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39965449424477268882008-07-24T19:49:00.000-04:002008-07-24T19:49:00.000-04:00Pfalz Prophet correctly notes that Archbishop Deng...Pfalz Prophet correctly notes that Archbishop Deng has called for a moratorium on ordination of practicing gays, not all gays in general. So, with that in mind, perhaps there ought equally to be a moratorium on the ordination of practicing heterosexuals, as well. Let GaffeCon agree!<BR/><BR/>Equal requirements.<BR/><BR/>But then, it seems to me that a few people were burned at the stake in the 16th century in part to defend the elimination of celibacy as a requirement for ordination....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4540258895785328242008-07-24T19:48:00.000-04:002008-07-24T19:48:00.000-04:00I would just like someone to explain to me what a ...I would just like someone to explain to me what a "normal Christian" is. I'm pretty sure I'm not one either and that has nothing to do with sexuality!Kirkepiscatoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651684515435040529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1247598717973847732008-07-24T17:42:00.000-04:002008-07-24T17:42:00.000-04:00And right on cue, another "Hey Everybody!!! ...And right on cue, another "Hey Everybody!!! LOOK AT ME!!!!!!!!!!" moment from the Duncanites! <BR/><BR/>So predictable. <BR/><BR/>We should expect a similar bit of drama out of these people every two or three days for the rest of the conference. It's how they work: nobody does carefully choreographed poutrage like Duncan and Iker. Honestly, those two have a flair for melodrama that would make Norma Desmond envious.<BR/><BR/>As for real Ph.D.s, Jim, I have one, and if you ever hear me saying something as boneheaded as the old Adam & Steve cliché, you have every right to call me on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11334971872203659732008-07-24T15:55:00.000-04:002008-07-24T15:55:00.000-04:00Just to note, though, Devon - as much as one might...Just to note, though, Devon - as much as one might or might not agree with Pat Buchannan's politics, I'm pretty sure you are referring to Pat ROBERTSON as one of the idiots who blamed the hurricane on gays.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70452943599184124502008-07-24T14:14:00.000-04:002008-07-24T14:14:00.000-04:00I fail to see what "fortitude" is involved in prea...I fail to see what "fortitude" is involved in preaching hatred. +Deng is wrong. +Deng is preaching evil. +Deng may or may not himself be evil--that I do not presume to know--but he is lending his mouth and his mind and his authority to the work of evil in the world, and it's especially repugnant given the anguish of his country--TEC and Gene Robinson are what he is choosing to speak to the world about? This is right up there with Jerry Falwell and Pat Buchannan blaming hurricanes on gay people in Miami. And Hitler blaming Germany's troubles on the Jews. And so forth, and so on. There's no "fortitude" involved at all. Just yet another Stupid Human Trick that leaves us weeping. Would that Ph.D.s were actually immunizations against stupidity and evil...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6247191614822849332008-07-24T13:35:00.000-04:002008-07-24T13:35:00.000-04:00Jim in MI wrote, I am as sinful as Bp. Robinson. B...Jim in MI wrote, <I>I am as sinful as Bp. Robinson. But when I sin, I ask for forgiveness not the church's blessing of the sin.</I><BR/><BR/>Well <B>bless</B> your heart, how <I>nice</I> of you to deign to appear here with the grubby hoi polloi. <BR/><BR/>I feel uplifted already ;->Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10124314924693077453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77968033144494754492008-07-24T11:28:00.000-04:002008-07-24T11:28:00.000-04:00Wonder where Pittsburgh and Ft Worth are hanging o...<I>Wonder where Pittsburgh and Ft Worth are hanging out.</I><BR/><BR/>Wherever Minns is staying, no doubt.<BR/><BR/>Does anyone really doubt that the Sudanese announcement was part of a coordinated effort to derail Lambeth? The demand to drop the lawsuits was a dead giveaway.<BR/><BR/>I think we should expect more of these bombshells in coming days--that is how our angry fundamentalist brethren work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67858068043579727652008-07-24T09:11:00.000-04:002008-07-24T09:11:00.000-04:00Be honest for once and admit the truth of it, ther...<I>Be honest for once and admit the truth of it, there is no room at your table for those who don't embrace, accept and agree with your new definition of Christianity and Scripture.</I><BR/><BR/>If you are still reading, Jim...<BR/><BR/>I will kneel at the altar and share in the Eucharist with you, any time, any place.<BR/><BR/>There is nothing in the liturgy that requires us to agree on anything, Jim. All we are asked to do is to come together, in the name of Christ, and encounter the holy and living God.<BR/><BR/>I can do that with you, no matter what you believe about homosexuality, the ordination of women, or world politics.<BR/><BR/>How about you meet me there, and we can trust to God to sort out all the rest?<BR/><BR/>Pax,<BR/>DoxyWormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20871396368030710682008-07-24T05:00:00.000-04:002008-07-24T05:00:00.000-04:00"Also, I find it troubling that some of the Americ..."Also, I find it troubling that some of the American bishops booked hotel rooms in Canterbury because they were too good to sleep in the Spartan quarters offered by Canterbury. What a bunch of wimps."<BR/><BR/>The "Spartan quarters" at the University of Kent provide only a single bed to each room. No married quarters. Three weeks of separation. Spousal cohabitation now a no-no, Jim of Michigan? "Wimpy", I guess?<BR/><BR/>A list of these "extramural" bishops would be interesting. Knowledgeable as you are, perhaps you can oblige? Wonder where Pittsburgh and Ft Worth are hanging out.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-90485420348288999072008-07-24T04:39:00.000-04:002008-07-24T04:39:00.000-04:00Wormwood' says "Who ran away from this conference,...Wormwood' says "Who ran away from this conference, Jim?"<BR/><BR/>What a great point! (not)<BR/><BR/>Note how GAFCON had 300 bishops which represented nealy 3/4 of the Anglicans in the world....and really did not miss tiny, shrinking TEC, Ireland or Scotland etc.....but you are obviously bothered by the GAFCON absence at Lambeth....<BR/><BR/>YOu are right, it does matter that Lambeth has lost the bishops of the majority of Angicans because its organisers have tried to avoid discipline and therefore are steering the AC to deviate from 2000 years and most of today's Christian biblical interpretation. <BR/><BR/>The tactics of fait accomplis has not worked.....agree not to do someting to stay in the club (eg Dromantine)...then do it anyway.....then argue that it cannot be undone but you are still part of the club and contraditions must be accepted.....fait accompli! Trouble is people have seen through this and it has only brought division....and the theological arguments against Lambeth 1.10 have not convinced many.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81466445857319550982008-07-23T22:14:00.000-04:002008-07-23T22:14:00.000-04:00Guess the ABC's complex, subtle program for enabli...Guess the ABC's complex, subtle program for enabling very different people to meet and heal themselves along side each other must have been working, so somebody had to throw a bomb and break up the impending reconciliation. <BR/><BR/>Happens all the time outside the Church. Why not within?janinsanfranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07548452260456734928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24129903921357096292008-07-23T21:07:00.000-04:002008-07-23T21:07:00.000-04:00Wormwood's doxy says: "I guess in your world, you'...Wormwood's doxy says: "I guess in your world, you're willing to cut them loose because they won't embrace your particular interpretation of scripture. For me, I want them to experience that mercy, grace, and love of God that I have experienced in my own life."<BR/><BR/>On this we have some narrow agreement. The only difference is that I believe that to achieve the mercy, grace and love, one should be encouraged to repent from sin and move into the light.<BR/><BR/>All of us are sinners and have fallen short (Romans 3:23). I am as sinful as Bp. Robinson. But when I sin, I ask for forgiveness not the church's blessing of the sin.<BR/><BR/>There's the rub. I believe the loving and Christian thing is to embrace and welcome homosexuals and any other manner of sinner, of which I am also one, and then work and hold each other accountable as we work towards a more Christlike existence. <BR/><BR/>But because the divide is so wide (and getting wider) it is time for me to permanently depart this toxic site and toxic argument and simply do the work that Christ wants me to do. I know he really doesn't want me here.<BR/><BR/>You folks keep saying we should stay at the table, but when we do you treat us like children, you treat African primates with real PHds as children and talk down to them as primitives and then wonder why we leave?<BR/><BR/>Be honest for once and admit the truth of it, there is no room at your table for those who don't embrace, accept and agree with your new definition of Christianity and Scripture.<BR/><BR/>Peace.<BR/><BR/>Jim of Michigan (gone for good)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61279646911461794332008-07-23T19:13:00.000-04:002008-07-23T19:13:00.000-04:00I hate to contradict His Grace, Bishop Deng, but t...I hate to contradict His Grace, Bishop Deng, but <A HREF="http://black-gay-arab.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">take a look at this</A>.<BR/>It's a blog by Ali who is Sudanese and gay.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14936836204803343342008-07-23T15:47:00.000-04:002008-07-23T15:47:00.000-04:00Comparing the mission field in America to the miss...<I>Comparing the mission field in America to the mission field in the Sudan is like comparing a high school football game to the War in Afghanistan.</I><BR/><BR/>Jim---please read what I wrote. My point is that <B>we all evangelize in our own cultural contexts.</B> Why is that so hard for people to grasp?!?!<BR/><BR/>No, I am not likely to face death here on earth for living my faith in the United States. But if you believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life---as I do---then what does it say that <B>you</B> are willing to write off people in our own culture, who have decided that Christianity is a religion for haters?!<BR/><BR/>We aren't losing people to Islam, Jim. We're losing them to Starbucks and the Sunday <I>NY Times</I>. They think Christians are what's wrong with this country because they see us as mean-spirited, judgmental, and fixated on sex.<BR/><BR/>And, really, who can blame them?<BR/><BR/>I guess in your world, you're willing to cut them loose because they won't embrace your particular interpretation of scripture. For me, I want them to experience that mercy, grace, and love of God that I have experienced in my own life.<BR/><BR/><I>Secondly, if the American bishops who are crying about Bp. Robinson's exclusion had the fortitude of the Global South bishops staying away in part over support of their excluded bishops, they would pack up and leave.</I><BR/><BR/>Some of us don't consider that "fortitude." The GS bishops remind me of my children when they were toddlers---throwing hissy fits when they didn't get their way, and willing to cut their noses off to spite their faces. I don't think that picking up your toys and storming out of the sandbox is particularly admirable.<BR/><BR/><I>What a bunch of wimps.</I><BR/><BR/>Wimps are people who run away when the going gets tough.<BR/><BR/>Who ran away from this conference, Jim?Wormwood's Doxyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10882756844690851674noreply@blogger.com