tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post8842128887919311598..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The Windsor Continuation Group: As if there was much to continue.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58337047511840055872008-02-16T10:10:00.000-05:002008-02-16T10:10:00.000-05:00A brief comment on John-Julian's remarks:In my hom...A brief comment on John-Julian's remarks:<BR/><BR/>In my home diocese of Virgina, as you know, several large churches left and affiliated with CANA and other offshore entities. Diocesan councils, since they left, have been extraordinarily productive, focused on God's call for us to do His work in the world. Of course we are still in the midst of legal wranglings about property, but the diocese is going forward in a way that feels quite healthy to me. <BR/><BR/>At the risk of an unpleasant metaphor, if you have an infected tooth that is distracting you and your whole body from health and productivity, perhaps it is better to pull the tooth. John-Julian is right. These primates are spiritually, politically and psychologically gone from the Anglican Communion, by their own choosing, by refusing ++Rowan's invitation. It is sad, but it may turn out to be healthier for the Communion in the long run.mibi52/ The Rev. Dr. Mary Brennan Thorpehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02129758906278501568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-26309979748808026242008-02-15T08:22:00.000-05:002008-02-15T08:22:00.000-05:00Christopher+ makes an important point.We do seem t...Christopher+ makes an important point.We do seem to have two different definitions of “full communion,” and I’m not sure that either one of them is, in the mathematical sense, well defined. The arguments that have raged in the Anglican Communion for going on five years is a great diversion, a waste of time, a disgraceful sin. We should all get on with mission and stop worrying about who is friends (or not) with whom like a bunch of high school student.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11359170084801499502008-02-15T04:06:00.000-05:002008-02-15T04:06:00.000-05:00John-Julian says "So, can't we just heave a great ...John-Julian says "So, can't we just heave a great communal sigh of relief and get on with things? "<BR/><BR/>WHo is the "WE"???<BR/><BR/>TEC and +Durham?<BR/>VGR and + Gomez?<BR/>The Primate of the US and Tanzania?<BR/><BR/>Not sure what you mean by "we"<BR/>and that you realise that the ABC does not count it a success to have the bishops of more than half the world's Anglicans and the growing provinces not coming to Lambeth.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59522478239032868152008-02-14T16:20:00.000-05:002008-02-14T16:20:00.000-05:00Mark, you are SO VERY right!Sometimes I get the fe...Mark, you are SO VERY right!<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I get the feeling that these people must be living on some other planet which receives no news or information of any kind about us and our lives. Sometimes I find myself asking, "What 'church' are these people talking about?" It's nothing I even vaguely recognize.<BR/><BR/>I rather thought that the voluntary absence of the bunch of reactivists from Lambeth pretty much settled the matter. Futzing and putzing now about Windsor Report, Dramantine, Tanzania, etc. seems like all ancient history to me. <BR/><BR/>I think that none of us would choose to have them gone, but now that they have gone – and whatever anyone says, they are GONE – what's the point in playing compromise games for their approval now? They simply won't come "back" unless we follow their recipe to the letter,and we simply won't/can't do that.<BR/><BR/>So, can't we just heave a great communal sigh of relief and get on with things? All those documents and reports and demands, etc. were only faltering steps on the way, but now we've been there, done that, so why continue to wave these flags?<BR/><BR/>I join with Prior Aelred in quiet amazement about ++Rowan's still apparently wanting to wave those dead, divisive banners. And I have just come to the conclusion that I shall never understand that good man's motives, intentions, or methods.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70217160413520851682008-02-14T15:20:00.000-05:002008-02-14T15:20:00.000-05:00One underlying premise of the Windsor Report that ...One underlying premise of the Windsor Report that has concerned me from the outset is the so-called "Instruments of Unity." They showed up in the WR as if a settled thing when, as I understand it, they first appeared in the Virginia Report a couple of years prior. It seems a shame to me that the WR and its response assumed these Instruments of Unity were a reality instead of a construct. I have other problems with the WR too, but that's a big one for me, and something I doubt will be addressed. My hope is that the Windsor Continuation Group will start by asking questions of the WR rather than accepting it as gospel, or even received wisdom. We shall see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-42089347782283484562008-02-14T00:53:00.000-05:002008-02-14T00:53:00.000-05:00Perhaps discussing the Windsor Report is the best ...Perhaps discussing the Windsor Report is the best thing that can happen? Any real discussion will reveal that the people most interested in "enforcing" it are also violating it. And many times something as useless as this can be talked to death and that ain't always all bad.PseudoPiskiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12070541512355253553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68817402839747601682008-02-13T11:08:00.000-05:002008-02-13T11:08:00.000-05:00The traditional, Anglican standard for full commun...The traditional, Anglican standard for full communion amongst Christians, by the way, is the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral. Those Anglican provinces for whom this minimum standard of faith and practice is no longer "enough" should nonetheless still be able to be part of the Anglican Communion, take part in all fellowship, as they see fit, and decide for themselves with which other provinces they are in full communion. But - and this is the crux of the issue - they must not be empowered to force their views on secondary issues on others. Nor should anyone else force their more nuanced views on them. All of this presupposes, of course, that AC authority is not centralized.<BR/><BR/>If being part of a diverse communion of churches amounts, in the view of some, to "forcing" issues or viewpoints upon them, they can opt out formally. By no means, however, are double-standards for ecclesiastical unity and attempts to enforce uniformity on nonessentials the answer; these just create more problems, as this whole discussion has shown.<BR/><BR/>christopher+Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59677596707345732642008-02-13T11:02:00.000-05:002008-02-13T11:02:00.000-05:00As I noted on another blog, one never knows how to...As I noted on another blog, one never knows how to read the intent of a man who consistently violates my personal communcations rule: Eschew sesquipedelian obfuscation!<BR/><BR/>That said, lest we forget, he said he was interested in deciding if some who have been invited are outside the boundaries. I understand from the blogs that he is livid over the boundary crossings. Hmmmm.....<BR/><BR/>FWIW<BR/>jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33288683647075625792008-02-13T10:40:00.000-05:002008-02-13T10:40:00.000-05:00Anonymous asks:"What matters?Truth or expediency?"...Anonymous asks:"What matters?<BR/>Truth or expediency?"<BR/><BR/>And anonymous answers:<BR/><BR/>What matters is love. It's not obvious how that translates into action on this issue, but it shouldn't be forgot that that's what matters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-29738318174253048222008-02-13T09:53:00.000-05:002008-02-13T09:53:00.000-05:00Perhaps Dame Mary Tanner can help the Anglican Com...Perhaps Dame Mary Tanner can help the Anglican Communion (AC) understand that it is foolish to have a double standard for full communion - one set of standards for full communion amongst AC provinces and another for full communion between individual provinces and other Christian churches (e.g., Church of Sweden, ELCA). Is full communion full communion, or is it not?<BR/><BR/>If the answer to this involves the supposed, automatic, full communion amongst AC member churches in communion with Canterbury, well, we've already been told by Nigeria and others that this no longer applies. The only way it might ever apply again, apparently, would be if TEC, the ACoC, the CoE and others just do what Nigeria says in terms of sexual ethics, same-sex blessings and the ordination of gay bishops (at least those honest enough to be open about themselves and their families, that is). And even that's only until the next chellenging issues come along, say, Nigeria's possible desire to forbid gay clergy period.<BR/><BR/>So let's drop the illusion of automatic, universal full communion and focus our energy on maintaining the highest degree of reciprocal full communion possible within the AC - without implementing a formula or mechanism structured so that a select and persistent group effectively has the final word on biblical interpretation and universal church discipline. Take the pressure off those who, for whatever reason, will not be in relationship with everyone else in communion with Canterbury; take the pressure off others who are incorporating a vision of full inclusion into their ministry.<BR/><BR/>christopher+Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-35207035370668455772008-02-13T08:49:00.000-05:002008-02-13T08:49:00.000-05:00What matters? The love which binds us into commun...What matters? The love which binds us into community (sometimes even with those we disagree with most strongly) is what matters.<BR/><BR/>There are at least two issues addressed by the Windsor Report that haven't been resolved yet. First, those border crossing bishops haven't stopped and gone to serve in some legitimate jurisdiction. Second, some way still needs to be found to assure conservative Christians eslewhere in the communion that conservatives here in TEC aren't eing horribly mistreated. The second seems like it should be easy since conservatives generally aren't being horribly mistreated, but finding a way to communicate that fact in a way that others trust has been remarkably difficult.<BR/><BR/>JonJonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13323740465436735706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85092737043943995132008-02-13T08:07:00.000-05:002008-02-13T08:07:00.000-05:00I agree 100% -- the Windsor Report was a tissue of...I agree 100% -- the Windsor Report was a tissue of lies & a complete disaster -- ++Rowan seems determined to destroy the WWAC & I honestly don't understand why!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-29365442758305128012008-02-13T03:31:00.000-05:002008-02-13T03:31:00.000-05:00The most important question is why is TEC still wa...The most important question is why is TEC still wasting its time, bending over backwards (eg BO33) to stay "in communion" with the AC after Dromantine, Tanzania, The Windsor Report and now committee of "Windsor Compliant" people?<BR/><BR/>Why does TEC tolerate VGR not being invited to Lambeth???<BR/><BR/>What matters?<BR/>Truth or expediency?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com