tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post115595739307953952..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Now There are Nine, and they are Nailed as a Federation, and O yes, there is another meeting of Bishops.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156224104830713592006-08-22T01:21:00.000-04:002006-08-22T01:21:00.000-04:00Yes, FatherJones, I'm interested in that, too.(Hav...Yes, FatherJones, I'm interested in that, too.<BR/><BR/>(Having accused one "Anonymous" poster of being the "id of this blog", you hardly seem to me to be in the position of a neutral judge. JMO.)<BR/><BR/>I stand on the knife-edge of Hope & Fear re this Cantuar-called meeting. Not liking the secrecy---to say nothing of lack of lay people---one bit though.<BR/><BR/>[Can't bring myself to read this Dutch Ev interview of Cantuar. Call me up "that River in Egypt", but I'm going to stack it up to "lost in translation", for the time being... :-/]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156217275469303352006-08-21T23:27:00.000-04:002006-08-21T23:27:00.000-04:00Father, we are engaged in a *political* struggle w...Father, we are engaged in a *political* struggle with a ruthless, well-funded opponent who is not above fighting dirty.<BR/><BR/>This isn't teatime at Aunt Maud's house.<BR/><BR/>So what would you have us do? I'm genuinely interested in your response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156210448105166482006-08-21T21:34:00.000-04:002006-08-21T21:34:00.000-04:00Anonymous ... your use of such politically incitin...Anonymous ... your use of such politically inciting, yet plainly inaccurate nalogies further indicates how off-base your comments are. Yes, Anonymous, everybody isn't just the same. And yes, Anonymous, the middle place between two extremes isn't necessarily the more truthful place either. But, in the case of the way you make your arguments -- as if you were on Crossfire and looking to make quick political hits with pithy if absurd comparisons and soundbites -- is quite the same as the people you oppose. In other words, as the counselors will tell you, the way you fight matters. And, yes, if you fight like a savage than you are a savage. At any rate, your style is offputting to the extreme, and whatever validity might be inside of your arguments is rendered meaningless by your name-calling, dismissive attitude of 'other,' superlatives, and other rhetorical devices. <BR/><BR/>I do agree that no website I've ever seen has such vile people-cursing, human dignity-denying, hatefilled and utterly false ranting as David Virtue's pornographic rant-space. <BR/><BR/>But, I didn't compare this to that. I compared it to T19 -- where the commentary tends very often to be dominated by people who argue as falsely as you do.Greg Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02002476644435618314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156203916051900062006-08-21T19:45:00.000-04:002006-08-21T19:45:00.000-04:00Father Jones, this place has a long way to sink be...Father Jones, this place has a long way to sink before it can hope to equal the ugliness on constant display at T19, to say nothing of such vicious, squalid places as the tragically-misnamed Virtue Online.<BR/><BR/>You remind me of self-declared "centrists" in the political realm, who behold a White House that blows the cover of covert agents for political payback, accuses decorated veterans of faking their injuries, declares that the opposition party hates God and America, lies us into a war that kills tens of thousands, etc. and then declare that all this is "just as bad as," say, obscure bloggers writing impolite things about government officials.<BR/><BR/>It's like the old story about the judge telling a battered woman that she and her husband both need to lay off each other.<BR/><BR/>The truth is not always in the middle, and both sides aren't always equally bad or to blame. Complaining about people engineering a fundamentalist takeover of one's church is not "just as bad" as engineering said fundamentalist takeover.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156172199380342062006-08-21T10:56:00.000-04:002006-08-21T10:56:00.000-04:00Well, I read what Br. Tobias Haller has written on...Well, I read what Br. Tobias Haller <A HREF="http://jintoku.blogspot.com/2006/08/finally-conference.html" REL="nofollow">has written on his blog</A> about his hopes for this meeting. It's certainly more optimistic than anything I can come up with - but God bless him anyway, and I hope he's right :)<BR/><BR/>As for me, all I can see is a deck stacked with ACN bishops ready to open up a can of whoop a** on the PB and PB-elect. And the ABC <I>still</I> doesn't have the courtesy to show up himself...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156164597176183172006-08-21T08:49:00.000-04:002006-08-21T08:49:00.000-04:00It may come to a point where bishops need to be de...It may come to a point where bishops need to be deposed and sees declared vacant. So far as I know, only Bishop Schofield faces possible charges at this point, and I have been consistent in asking for due process and for the respect we owe both his office and person. The same goes for other bishops. The presumption of innocence is in our secular courts. So much more ought we to preserve it, remembering also that detraction is a sin. This kind of disciplinary action would harm everyone, but could be the lesser of two evils. Our desire to find pastoral solutions and to be part of a church where all are welcome should not be confused with weakness. These men (they are all men) are beloved brothers and apostles of Christ.<BR/><BR/>I can understand the level of frustration that would call for a Boston Tea Party approach, but I think that patience and longsuffering love will do more to help the mission of the Church than hasty punitive action. I will have nothing to do with appeals to patience to justify injustice and bigotry (as with B033) but the process of our pastoral response to "realignment," i.e. schism, is more complex. <BR/><BR/>Ecclesiastical discipline is a real possibility here. This should sadden us, but not keep us from doing our duty when the time comes.<BR/><BR/>Bishop Minns, for example, should be deposed. And I expect that he will be, either under the abandoning the communion canon or some other, unless he has the grace to renounce his orders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156160114378516312006-08-21T07:35:00.000-04:002006-08-21T07:35:00.000-04:00"You kow, it's time to throw the tea in the harbor..."You kow, it's time to throw the tea in the harbor again: depose the Nutwork bishops, declare their sees vacant, boldly announce to the bumbling, gutless Rowan that we have no desire to join his newfangled Akinolan Communion, and invite to join us other Anglicans around the world who have no desire to be subjugated to a bunch of third-world fundamentalists bigots and their enablers."<BR/><BR/>Anonymous has revealed the shadow mind of this blog I think. There is more than this here of course, but this is the uninhibited id of preludium speaking. It reminds me of the horrible id I see all over the place on the Angrican right wing blogs.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for showing me which blog is the opposite of Titusonenine.Greg Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02002476644435618314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156148831239273712006-08-21T04:27:00.000-04:002006-08-21T04:27:00.000-04:00"remember, though, let's not demonize those who di..."remember, though, let's not demonize those who disagree with "<BR/><BR/>Hardly necessary ;=)Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156116444396943552006-08-20T19:27:00.000-04:002006-08-20T19:27:00.000-04:00Well, Martyn-with-a-Y finally got his pointy hat t...Well, Martyn-with-a-Y finally got his pointy hat today:<BR/><BR/>http://www.anglican-nig.org/defendfaith.htm<BR/><BR/>After all these years of being a bridesmaid, he's finally a bride!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156084633180947642006-08-20T10:37:00.000-04:002006-08-20T10:37:00.000-04:00Mark, thanks for your words. ACM & Prior Aelred ha...Mark, thanks for your words. ACM & Prior Aelred have me wondering what shape the table must be -- rather like UN and such -- so no one on one side has to say they sat with the others.<BR/>ColumbaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156083059011621092006-08-20T10:10:00.000-04:002006-08-20T10:10:00.000-04:00Well, I've observed many times before ("pardon my ...Well, I've observed many times before ("pardon my redundancy") that where there is good will, all the structures in the world are not necessary & where there is not, none of them will do any good<BR/><BR/>ALSO that there has been a de facto schism ever since Dromantine where about half the primates refused to receive communion with ++Frank<BR/><BR/>SO if this is the ABC using influence to try to get the principles to talk contructively with each other (rather than trying to influence the course of the discussion), well & good (nothing else would do any good & this probably won't either, but one has to show willing -- see B033 which I see as requiring refusal of consent to any Network member since their intention is schism)<BR/><BR/>THEREFORE I pretty much agree with merseymike about the situation & the desired outcome -- I don't know if we are in accord on tactics, but our situations are quite different, after all<BR/><BR/>AND it seems that Bill Carroll is right that this is about power & we all know what power does<BR/><BR/>FINALLY someone in the Anglican Communion Office told me that Cantuar only gets letters from whack jobs & Ebor told a friend of mine the same thing (not in those exact words, AHEM) & so, even though they know better, they still get a totally distorted view of what is going on -- the fact that the vast majority of communicants in TEC are simply not in panic mode doesn't seem to occur to themAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156068673177905672006-08-20T06:11:00.000-04:002006-08-20T06:11:00.000-04:00the Archbishop of Canterbury has a fax number by w...the Archbishop of Canterbury has a fax number by which people may contact him. sadly, he has no email. so, Americans who wish to send him remarks can only do so by fax or by snail mail. I shall be sending some comments to Rev Dr Williams.<BR/><BR/>his contact info is on this page: http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/site/index.html<BR/><BR/>remember, though, let's not demonize those who disagree with us.Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17851789276439393822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156036866800514602006-08-19T21:21:00.000-04:002006-08-19T21:21:00.000-04:00One ring to rule them all...One ring to rule them all...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156027631939728012006-08-19T18:47:00.000-04:002006-08-19T18:47:00.000-04:00As someone in the UK who doesn't feel able to atte...As someone in the UK who doesn't feel able to attend a CofE parish at present, I am waiting for you to take a bold lead and provide us with a genuine forward looking, fundamentalist-free denomination.Merseymikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07231364271812168188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156018957589852082006-08-19T16:22:00.000-04:002006-08-19T16:22:00.000-04:00Regarding the second anonymous comment, it's just ...Regarding the second anonymous comment, it's just further evidence that the rest of the communion is utterly clueless about the polity of TEC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1156004387189733592006-08-19T12:19:00.000-04:002006-08-19T12:19:00.000-04:00I have yet to hear any comments regarding the fact...I have yet to hear any comments regarding the fact that this meeting is for bishops only, with the presence of the ACC secretary. While it appears to be a necessary next step toward looking at resolution, where are lay and clerical representatives of the church representing Executive Council. While a small meeting may be advantageous as a first step it appears that +Cantuar wants things done by fiat of the bishops.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1155998280313032402006-08-19T10:38:00.000-04:002006-08-19T10:38:00.000-04:00This is getting ridiculous. Marshall, I wish I co...This is getting ridiculous. Marshall, I wish I could share your optimism. It will be interesting to have +Iker and +Jefferts Schori at the same table.<BR/>Anonymous, I'm afraid I am coming to feel the way you do. It's becoming painfully obvious that the ABC is not going to stand up to this group. How much worse would be actually be if these folks were deposed? Those of us who wish to remain could do so, and then get on with what we are called to be about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1155975257556137562006-08-19T04:14:00.000-04:002006-08-19T04:14:00.000-04:00How can we expect the world to be peaceful when in...How can we expect the world to be peaceful when in fact leaders of our church are confusing too. Maybe if disputes or confusion from the church will be solved. Then we might know how to solve the world's issues too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1155962861867938362006-08-19T00:47:00.000-04:002006-08-19T00:47:00.000-04:00You kow, it's time to throw the tea in the harbor ...You kow, it's time to throw the tea in the harbor again: depose the Nutwork bishops, declare their sees vacant, boldly announce to the bumbling, gutless Rowan that we have no desire to join his newfangled Akinolan Communion, and invite to join us other Anglicans around the world who have no desire to be subjugated to a bunch of third-world fundamentalists bigots and their enablers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1155961382613602382006-08-19T00:23:00.000-04:002006-08-19T00:23:00.000-04:00What Marshall said . . . and IF the bishops have b...What Marshall said . . . and IF the bishops have been instructed to "bring a (mitre'd) friend" I really, Really, <B>REALLY</B> hope someone brings +Gene (talk about the "pink elephant" in the room! :-0)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1155958853824609652006-08-18T23:40:00.000-04:002006-08-18T23:40:00.000-04:00One piece of information I'm waiting on is whether...One piece of information I'm waiting on is whether Bishop Lee and Bishop Lipscomb at least, and perhaps Bishops Griswold and Jefferts Schori have been instructed to bring another bishop. That would also affect the balance.<BR/><BR/>I would note that the Anglican Consultative Council is both the most representative of the "Instruments of Unity," and the one where our participation was clearly affirmed by the majority at their last meeting, even if we were compliant enough to maintain a shadow presence. Too, Kearon's statements during and since Convention have been supportive of our process and our presence. And in his position as Secretary General he is not directly responsible to the Archbishop. His presence seems a qualitatively different presence than two English bishops, however "approved" that presence may be by the Archbishop. <BR/><BR/>I have a hope (I may be disappointed; I have before, but one can still hope): that the Secretary General will say, "You people have to work this out, because the Archbishop will not recognize, and the ACC will not recognize, a parallel province in the United States; and the bishops going to Texas will have the same message." Yeah, I'm an optimist; but, since we all have to wait anyway, I'll wait with hope.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.com