tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post3374044877977985144..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Followup on Communion and Hierarchy, my article "Why direct sign on..," etc.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20412439388144966932009-08-06T19:21:35.481-04:002009-08-06T19:21:35.481-04:00Thanks for posting my comment. It was unclear what...Thanks for posting my comment. It was unclear what was happening so ACI simply decided it was better to join the matter in a context where greater possibility of exposure was assured, and discussion, than here (where often comments are very few in number). So ACI has offered a fuller comment than the one above. I see that some blogs have now picked this up. The issues are very important. <br /><br />C SEITZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85136540682113153732009-08-06T09:34:00.682-04:002009-08-06T09:34:00.682-04:00ACI statements entail input from several authors, ...ACI statements entail input from several authors, in the US, UK and Canada. Fr Matthew Olver is a Priest at Church of the Incarnation in Dallas and a contributor to the covenant-communion website. <br /><br />As for your citing draft requirement 3.2.5. Since the request was made by the Communion, it will be the Communion which will interpret compliance/rejection.ACI does not believe that “caution” was exercised at all, and it furthermore does not believe that those who embrace these innovations understand that they need to exercise caution at all. The time for that, we understand from them, is over; restraint was not really appropriate anyway, and now that time is past. Is this really in doubt?<br /><br />So what if your premise is, as we believe, wrong? What if the move forward has been undertaken regardless of the threat to Communion and its unity, out of a sense of justice and rights? What if proponents of the new sexual ethic truly want to be a church on its own, vis-à-vis a Covenant or Windsor? Interdependence in a Communion is precisely what is being rejected in favor of autonomy and a federal association. The nominations in LA and MN make that abundantly clear. So again, what if your premise is flawed?<br /><br />It is because of this that ACI speaks of provisional rejection. What we do not understand is why supposedly liberal Christians wish to hold hostage to their way of thinking those who prefer interdependence in Communion. On logical terms, why must all be bound to go the way of autonomy and a national denomination? Why do you not see that some truly wish to belong to a catholic church and an Anglican Communion via a covenant, instead of being lumped with those whose understanding and hopes are very different? That some of us believe that in so doing we are upholding the constitution of this church? No one is contesting that your way of being an Episcopalian is winning out in the General Convention voting. What we do not understand is why you don’t declare that this entails an autonomous church, and a way of being Anglican the proposed covenant does not embrace, and then let those who wish to embrace this do so? Surely that is congruent with the liberal position.<br /><br />What remains terribly confused for those wishing to embrace a covenant of interdependence is your insistence on saying nothing has changed, that there has been no rejection. that we are studying the covenant, etc., but insisting at the same time that the American Episcopal way is a way of autonomy and independent action? If this be so, why not declare it and let those who wish to be Episcopalians in Communion do so?<br /><br />In putting it this way, we leave to the side whether dioceses have the right to sign a covenant anyway, and that there is no constitutional let or hindrance against this. What remains unclear is your failure simply to embrace the position you hold, with integrity, and acknowledge that the life in Communion envisioned by a covenant would be an infringement on goals and hopes central to your way of being a Christian? To many this just seems to be temporizing, or strategy, or prevarication. Certainly to people in Integrity a covenant way of living in Communion is a false way and to be rejected as unjust. Draft requirements like 3.2.5 are wrong, and ought not to be part of the Christian way of justice. They are not to be complied with or defended, and indeed their very logic is to be rejected. It is confusing how you could read this in any other way.<br /><br />(On the matter of consents, referred to above – the consent process is exactly a process entailing bishops, and that is how the determination is made. General Convention or ‘the national church’ does not vote. We are an Episcopal Church in an Anglican Communion, not a General Convention Church, or a national denomination in a global federation, like the Lutheran World Federation. Though that is what some are trying to create. Re: becoming a RC. No, Anglicans are catholic and apostolic Christians in a Communion. RCs understand that difference, even while we are beginning to forget it).<br />C SEITZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14203965308462161802009-08-05T17:52:37.635-04:002009-08-05T17:52:37.635-04:00To say that this is not a hierarchical church exce...To say that this is not a hierarchical church except within each diocese means that General Convention and the Constitution and Canons of The Episcopal Church have no authority within my own diocese, and so I am thus not bound to them. That is patently false. In every set of diocesan canons I've seen, there is always a clause which states that if the diocesan canons conflict with the national canons, the national canons take precedence. <br /><br />I continue to be amazed over and over again that in the same breath that conservatives insist that TEC is not a hierarchical church they also insist on creating a hierarchical Anglican Church out of the Anglican Communion. If one wants a worldwide church rather than a worldwide communion, I'm sure the Roman Catholics would love to have you...Tom Sramek, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17891982131922786298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-10267581059954711502009-08-05T16:50:11.341-04:002009-08-05T16:50:11.341-04:00Funny how that side are all in favor of majority r...Funny how that side are all in favor of majority rules (when PropH8 passes) but all opposed (when exclusion is voted down).<br /><br />`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'<br /><br />`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'<br /><br />`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21029711296504445172009-08-05T13:44:47.971-04:002009-08-05T13:44:47.971-04:00Fr. Harris
1. Given this statement from the Archbi...Fr. Harris<br />1. Given this statement from the Archbishop of Canterbury it is clear that TEC will not be able to join in any Anglican Covenant without instituting genuinely the moritoria as originally requested by Windsor which would require a denial of the actions just taken in D025 and C056. <br />"However, a realistic assessment of what Convention has resolved does not suggest that it will repair the broken bridges into the life of other Anglican provinces; very serious anxieties have already been expressed. The repeated request for moratoria on the election of partnered gay clergy as bishops and on liturgical recognition of same-sex partnerships has clearly not found universal favour"<br /><br />2. You sight the convention's action in the passage of D020 as evidence that the Covenant has not been 'provisionally rejected' yet even it does not commit TEC to taking a vote on the actual Covenant when it is finalized, but only to draft legislation to respond to it.<br />"Resolved, That Executive Council prepare a report to the 77th General Convention of the Episcopal Church that includes draft legislation concerning this Church's response to an Anglican Covenant."<br /><br />3. Given the actions of the convention I beleive it would be nothing more than wishful thinking to suggest that there is not already a de facto rejection of any Anglican Covenant that includes possible self imposed limits on actions for the sake of restoring and maintaining full communion among the provinces of the Anglican Communion.<br /><br />Yes, it is possible that TEC will reverse 30 years of its current direction, but no one is expecting that nor would it be reasonable to suggest that anyone at ACI or elsewhere should act on that remote possibility.chiprhysnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81876093381066635702009-08-05T09:56:54.032-04:002009-08-05T09:56:54.032-04:00"Those who hold power have acted decisively i...<i>"Those who hold power have acted decisively in ways founded on crude majoritarian vote rather than consensus."</i><br /><br />Well, dang, my constitutional law professors were all misinformed: A "consensus" is not the will of the majority. How about that. We better start re-writing all the dictionaries.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11622358803103789307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-51582440181449393922009-08-05T09:17:49.217-04:002009-08-05T09:17:49.217-04:00ACI: 'We have on numerous occasions shown that...ACI: 'We have on numerous occasions shown that, within TEC, there is no constitutional basis for this claim. According to its constitution, as a national church, TEC is not hierarchical. It is hierarchical in a constitutional sense only at the diocesan level.'<br /><br />I'm not a canon lawyer, so please help me out here. If TEC is NOT hierarchical at a national level, but only on a diocesan level, then why do TEC (and yes, Network) Bishops and diocesan Standing Committees participate in the consent process - consenting or not consenting to the election of any other diocese's bishop? <br /><br />If the ACI view were reality, would not a diocese simply "announce" the election of its bishop-elect? End of story.Jay in the Dio. of Springfield, ILnoreply@blogger.com