tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post498114690781435127..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: The Anglican Covenant: No Playing with Guns in the House.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61494117823568109792010-10-20T10:14:43.853-04:002010-10-20T10:14:43.853-04:00Lapin - pls get it once and for all...suggesting a...Lapin - pls get it once and for all...suggesting a principled stand does not require one to be in agreement or against TEC...someone who disagrees with TEC can suggest a principled stand to TEC and to the GS ...... principled stands are good.<br /><br />Marshall Scott - thanks for comments.....I just think all sides of the arguments (that is all they are now) would be better off not defining in terms of canterbury etc.... history has moved on - none of us are benefitting from being trapped by calls to institutional unity. We're just wasting our energy talking past each other....better to get on with our lives without institutional unity.... I honestly believe that we would all benefit.Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-49425009968030850872010-10-17T18:40:40.059-04:002010-10-17T18:40:40.059-04:00Hey Fred,
Actually its about technological incomp...Hey Fred,<br /><br />Actually its about technological incompetence. Standfirm have a registration system, and I filled it in some time ago, so I come up there as Obadiahslope. Generally I am Obadiahslope where I have to use my wordpress log in too. When I remember I type my real name at the bottom of my post.John Sandemanhttp://eternity.biznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53340511030556001972010-10-17T01:12:54.498-04:002010-10-17T01:12:54.498-04:00John,
As I understand it you use John with us and ...John,<br />As I understand it you use John with us and Obidiahslope with the Standfirm crowd, but hey, we all aren't who we say we are, are we?. The point I am/was trying to make is that those in ACNA have gone too far -- there are only two choices for them, The first is to simply be another denomination in the United States. The second, is to overthrow TEC and become the "only" Anglican presence in the US. The latter is what they can almost taste. They need to get a grip 'cause it ain't gonna happen.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24039789088582366242010-10-16T00:29:49.552-04:002010-10-16T00:29:49.552-04:00...and behold AJM, a classic "Seagull"! ......and behold AJM, a classic "Seagull"! (troll. Unless s/he comes back again and again and again)<br /><br />I can relate to AJM: I, myself, have "Seagull Troll'd" the odd (!) Conservative blog. From my POV, it's "Just ONCE today, the POWER(-Over) at this blog are gonna hear some Truth!" (i.e., hear Truth from Yours Truly. Am I really just spouting my own self-serving nonsense? Flip a coin! ;-))<br /><br />*JUST IN CASE* AJM is here, re <br /><br /><i>TEC will probably be about the size of the Unitarian Church in 10-20 years (under 1M). It will resemble the Scottish Episcopal Church -- about 30K on Sunday mornings, if that.</i><br /><br />Can I tell you, AJM, just how much I DON'T CARE ***if*** that's a correct demographic prognostication?<br /><br />Jesus on the cross was *one* guy. (Well, one Person of the Holy Trinity, but still.)<br /><br />Jesus and the apostles were 13.<br /><br />Add the "72 disciples" and we're still talking under hundred. Add all "the [mostly nameless] women", and we're talking what? 500?<br /><br /><b>Five hundred people</b> turned the world upside-down, w/ the proclamation/deeds/FOOD of the Coming Kingdom, and you're trying to SCARE us with "about 30K"? Please! }-p<br /><br /><b>23,334</b> people have viewed +Gene Robinson's "It Gets Better" <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPZ5eUrNF24&feature=player_embedded" rel="nofollow">testimony</a> in TWO DAYS.<br /><br />I'm not saying they'll all become Episcopalians.<br /><br />I'm saying, I want to join THEM! :-)JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52773724086816791342010-10-15T11:03:50.124-04:002010-10-15T11:03:50.124-04:00"“Like Special Forces, we go behind the scene...<i>"“Like Special Forces, we go behind the scenes and we blow up things”</i> - Phil Ashey, Chief Operating Officer of AAC. But I guess that's not "playing with toys", is it, AJM?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3630939778570697582010-10-15T10:24:42.091-04:002010-10-15T10:24:42.091-04:00A pretty good example why things are so bad -- whe...A pretty good example why things are so bad -- when comparisons are meant to be apt which speak of little boys with toys and the leadership charged with the instrumental life of the Communion. I hope in years to come, after the judgment has fully purified the tiny wreck that TEC will have become, historians look back and read these kinds of things and shake their heads in disbelief. Equally, all the 'when in the course of human events' whining. Look, TEC will probably be about the size of the Unitarian Church in 10-20 years (under 1M). It will resemble the Scottish Episcopal Church -- about 30K on Sunday mornings, if that. When at last all the conservative voices are driven out of TEC, and TEC becomes what it wishes to be, it will be in essence a 'niche church' with varieties of affluent liberalism. It won't take that much longer. 'Boys with toys' indeed. So much silliness from sixties 'leaders.' AJMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-49234455128114570752010-10-15T05:29:30.823-04:002010-10-15T05:29:30.823-04:00My comments were in no way directed towards Mr San...My comments were in no way directed towards Mr Sandeman.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3729009475539242762010-10-15T02:56:08.951-04:002010-10-15T02:56:08.951-04:00David,
Thankyou, I appreciate your response. As y...David,<br /><br />Thankyou, I appreciate your response. As you are aware (because I have seen your posts on the "other side") being an effective minority voice takes skill so I value your opinion in this matter.<br /><br />Fred,<br />As someone who is pro-Gafcon, I don't necessarily see that a strong TEC means a weak Gafcon and visa versa. I can see both flourishing depending on the energy their ownmembers bring to the task. Yes, the people you mention probably don't want TEC to do well, but their influence on the future of TEC will be slight compared to TEC's own support base. Similarly, if say ACNA does not go well, I don't think their members can blame TEC. <br />And it's both John and Obadiahslope - the pseudonym dates back to Father Jake days when most people seemed to use invented names.<br />John SandemanJohn Sandemanhttp://eternity.biznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-29467530457222756932010-10-14T23:36:29.379-04:002010-10-14T23:36:29.379-04:00As a resident expert in concern trolling John, I h...As a resident expert in concern trolling John, I have never found you to be engaged in the practice in your posts.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31689403869003157002010-10-14T22:36:04.335-04:002010-10-14T22:36:04.335-04:00John (or is it Obidiahslope?),
I understand what ...John (or is it Obidiahslope?),<br /><br />I understand what those who have signed on to the Jerusalem Declaration have said about the Covenant. They are hell-bent (no pun intended) on putting TEC out of business once and for all and they are more outspoken about it than the sleazy Robert Duncans, ACNA, Communion Partners, et al but it does not change the fact, in fact in heightens it!<br />Once again, obfuscation is the order of the day.Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2852241356535775542010-10-14T20:19:08.236-04:002010-10-14T20:19:08.236-04:00Drawing conclusions about what lies behind the dis...Drawing conclusions about what lies behind the disinterested facades of the "Observers" and "Curious-es" of the "reasserter" blog world is no more stalking than observing that Tokyo Rose, in her day, was maybe just a wee bit biased, would have been stalking, AJM. The link I have posted above makes it very clear indeed that Observer is in reality an outspoken, implacable foe of TEC. It is fair, therefore, to draw the conclusion that his or her honeyed words in these parts are likely an attempt to lull the unwary into believing that the "temporary" withdrawal of TEC from the Communion - coincidentally leaving the pitch clear for the machinations of ACNA & its backers - would be a fair and honest move. "Liberals", after all, are such suckers for the "fair & honest" thing, are they not, AJM?<br /><br />I again refer you to David & JCF on "Concern Trolls".Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-22456191317318647752010-10-14T18:03:02.062-04:002010-10-14T18:03:02.062-04:00Fred,
The Jerusalem Declaration group include many...Fred,<br />The Jerusalem Declaration group include many who are as sceptical of the covenant as the general opinion on this site.<br />For example, some of the provinces in this group consider themselves out of communion with TEC and are wary of signing a covenant which TEC might also sign. They don't wish to be under the discipline of the "Standing Committee" which they regard as tilted to the left.<br />At some points these conservative voices and some of the progressive voices are saying similar things.<br />In offering these thoughts I hope I am not dismissed as a "concern troll". (the word verification ironically is "stings")<br />John SandemanJohn Sandemanhttp://eternity.biznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77365625169759733612010-10-14T17:51:36.046-04:002010-10-14T17:51:36.046-04:00Rabbit--you need to get a life and climb out of bl...Rabbit--you need to get a life and climb out of blogdom. Leave Observor alone. You are stalking him. That's not good for rabbits! AJMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59022843153544573612010-10-14T16:58:29.163-04:002010-10-14T16:58:29.163-04:00If recent actions by the ABC and Canon Kearnon are...If recent actions by the ABC and Canon Kearnon are any indication, boys will be boys and even sticks should be left outside.<br /><br />Perhaps if we are also outside, we could build something new and sturdy with those sticks.Point of Orderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11197275383322593717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84055825057093775642010-10-14T14:51:29.703-04:002010-10-14T14:51:29.703-04:00Again, Observer, I refer readers of this thread wh...Again, Observer, I refer readers of this thread who may be taken in by unassuming nature of your latest post, to your 2:35 am post on <a href="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=23327221&postID=3838631932481459934&isPopup=true" rel="nofollow">this thread</a>, where they may assess for themselves the extent to which the veneer of reasonableness you assume when posting to this site reflects your actual opinions.<br /><br />I would also mention JCF's observations on "Concern Trolls" in the final post on <a href="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10326675&postID=5874175521335172958" rel="nofollow">this</a> recent Preludium post.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11513239320418065212010-10-14T11:56:02.871-04:002010-10-14T11:56:02.871-04:00You know, Observer, I understand the comment about...You know, Observer, I understand the comment about not participating in the politics, and your repeated appeals to a standard of integrity. One difficulty important to us on "this side of the pond," as it were, is that to this point participation in the Anglican Communion has been defined by Communion with the Church of England and the See of Canterbury; and then latterly by participation in the Anglican Consultative Council. We're not interested in principle in walking away from either of those; and neither are we interested in changing that definition. Thus, our ambivalence: we don't enjoy being reviled, nor (some comments here and elsewhere notwithstanding) reviling; but neither do we want the innovation of defining participation in the Communion by participation in the Covenant-as-proposed.<br /><br />Now, it's possible that participation in the Communion might be redefined; or we might have the "two track" event Archbishop Williams imagined (although not, I think, as he imagined it), and in either case find ourselelves explicitly excluded or effectively sidelined. However, so far we're committed to maintaining communion, and the Communion, as much as we can based on Canterbury and ACC, as opposed to organizing something simply for our convenience. It may come to that; but only after we've exhausted the possibility of Canterbury and ACC.<br /><br />You know, we've said as a Church (and as a Deputy to the last General Convention I say "we" very thoughtfully) both that we feel called to open full participation in the life of the Church to all, and also that we feel called to maintain communion as widely as possible, even with those who disagree with us. There is certainly a lot of tension between those positions, but maintaining our integrity requires our best efforts to do both.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-36379055015344939592010-10-14T09:06:45.470-04:002010-10-14T09:06:45.470-04:00Holy Crackers, Father Mark! Once again you attrib...Holy Crackers, Father Mark! Once again you attribute characteristics to the Primates that are far beyond their comprehension, and well out of touch with reality. The primates, specifically, those who hail from the Global South and those that have signed on to the Jerusalem Declaration, have created a poison pill that is euphemistically called the Anglican Covenant. Yes, in a real world, in a benign world, the way you describe this thing playing out is probably fairly accurate --- but that is not now nor has it ever been veiwed as such by the likes of Peter Akinola, Henri Luke Orombi, and, most important, Robert Duncan. The long and the short of this Anglican Covenant is to drive TEC out and install ACNA. Call it a stick, a gun or a popsicle, it matters little. The posion pill will be used if we vote it in and the Primates will take care of TEC if we do not vote in favor.<br />And, oh by the way, who died and left the Primates Council god?Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43333701140807794142010-10-14T03:49:38.417-04:002010-10-14T03:49:38.417-04:00Well said Mark,
I think you are right, I'll l...Well said Mark,<br /><br />I think you are right, I'll link to this article if I may on my blog later.<br /><br />LesleyLesleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17228191583982936566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25208845335651151092010-10-14T03:35:37.416-04:002010-10-14T03:35:37.416-04:00Would it be good for TEC to spend more years invol...Would it be good for TEC to spend more years involved with AC politics? Not good for TEC or the AC in my view - prefer we get away from the institutional unity programme.... it diminishes all as all are called to compromise principles - for the sake of being on AC committees and at meetings!Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-39082572026711381552010-10-13T21:42:50.554-04:002010-10-13T21:42:50.554-04:00Mark,
I thought your earlier comments were right ...Mark,<br /><br />I thought your earlier comments were right on target. TEC should be less concerned about joining the Anglican Covenant and more concerned with standing with the excluded and marginalized. <br /><br />Perhaps the respnse should be along the lines of 'yes we would like to belong, but we are only coming if you welcome all our sisters and brothers. If there isn't room for them, then there isn't room for us.<br /><br />The Anglican Communion exists it seems to validate the legitimacy of churches. That validity is the same sought by the scribes and pharisees and Jesus chose not to cater to the in crowd. They despised him for it. <br /><br />Better to join hands with those who Jesus welcomed into the Kingdom, than to crave after the approval of those who who exclude those whom He welcomed.<br /><br />Sarah J FlynnSarah Flynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05118217662597907647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48876967899217750602010-10-13T21:36:55.111-04:002010-10-13T21:36:55.111-04:00Mark,
I thought your earlier comments about joini...Mark,<br /><br />I thought your earlier comments about joining the marginalized summed up what needed to be said about the Anglican Covenant and the Anglican Communion. Its time to stop the anxious wringing of hands about losing 'our place' in the synagogue's front rows, and join the ranks of the excluded. So if TEC joins and gets asked to leave or if it votes not to join the heart of the matter is in letting go of belonging to a club that serves to validate its members legitimacy and joining hands with those who are considered illegitimate. What is so terrible about that? Jesus didn't cater to the in-crowd and they despised him for it. Perhaps the message to be sent to the AC is we'd like to come, but not without our gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgendered brothers and sisters. Let the in-crowd decide if there is room enough for them. If not, why would you want to belong? Let the decision be upon those heads who want to cast the first stone.<br /><br />Sarah FlynnSarah Flynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05118217662597907647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54942184236924729102010-10-13T21:17:36.259-04:002010-10-13T21:17:36.259-04:00I certainly see your point, Mark; but I'm also...I certainly see your point, Mark; but I'm also conscious that it doesn't have to be a gun. An awful lot of folks have suffered horribly at the hands of a person with a stick.<br /><br />Those who are committed to a rush to judgment, and to the Covenant-as-proposed as the tool for judgment, have already spoken of pushing their own to sign as quickly as possible, and then once (if) they reach a majority of the churches in the Communion of meeting to amend the Covenant-as-proposed in such a way as to make it a better tool for their purposes, a sharper stick. Holding out for the traditional position that membership in the Communion remains in the hands of the Church of England and then the Constitution of the Anglican Consultative Council seems wisest. Could we find ourselves excluded from the Instruments? Perhaps; but it would take years, and wouldn't be a matter of our own abdication.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.com