tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post4997681922274190078..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: What do we really know about David Kato's death?Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-38970775952883161952011-02-11T01:05:16.697-05:002011-02-11T01:05:16.697-05:00CiaoCiaoBrother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40868191833267736172011-02-10T19:49:03.299-05:002011-02-10T19:49:03.299-05:00These dioceses will not accept such PBs.
Do you u...These dioceses will not accept such PBs.<br /><br />Do you understand? They believe a PB in the Anglican Tradition is our lex credendi.<br /><br />The question need not be further sharpened or intellectualised.<br /><br />Will these dioceses be able to hold on to the theological consensus of former books, or be forced to accept a new Coomon Prayer and a new idea about what it means? If No, fine.<br /><br />But the point--to come back to it-is the same. This will not be allowed.<br /><br />Do you get this?<br /><br />grace and peace<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69324068221844117082011-02-10T19:04:39.400-05:002011-02-10T19:04:39.400-05:00I am not following what you mean by loose leaf bin...I am not following what you mean by loose leaf binder. A prayerbook is a prayerbook. There is nothing loose-leaf about it. But there are many priestly ministries which never necessarily require or call upon the priest to use every liturgy in the book. Priests have never been required to solemnize marriages in TEC, it has always been a matter left to the conscience of the priest. This has not changed just because who may wed has changed.<br /><br />Usually at sometime after the propagation of a prayerbook there comes a point that it is the only authorized liturgy of a province and any previous prayerbooks may become unauthorized.<br /><br />Just about every time there is a new prayerbook, there are likely those who leave over it. It happened regarding the 1979 BCP and the 1928 BCP.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34461124057726384982011-02-10T17:50:52.005-05:002011-02-10T17:50:52.005-05:00'Common Prayer' not 'loose-leaf binder...'Common Prayer' not 'loose-leaf binder'. 'Common' as in, agreed to by all and catholic in its grasp of scripture's sense.<br /><br />So, a diocese would not be able to use such a book, because it does not subscribe to loose-leaf binder = BCP (and no book in anglicanism has been thought of as optional services, some theologically approved by all, others not in the least).<br /><br />So, would those dioceses that could not receive the new book be allowed to continue with the BCP? I suspect they would be forbidden this. What is left for them then?<br /><br />Title IV will be of great use as an enforcer. It is unclear who else wants it and what value it has. Bishop Howe in CFL said it gave him powers vis-a-vis his clergy he did not want to have.<br /><br />God bless him.<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25321702884707292032011-02-10T15:10:13.934-05:002011-02-10T15:10:13.934-05:00Kurt I am not sure what you are saying here.
I th...Kurt I am not sure what you are saying here.<br /><br />I think that at some point in the future there will be a new TEC prayer book. It will likely undergo a process of development as the TEC prayerbooks have in the past. That is a process that may not occur for some time. But I think that at some future date there will be a TEC prayerbook that includes liturgies appropriate for use of the blessing/solemnizing the union/marriage of a same sex couple.<br /><br />Prior to that there may be General Convention authorized trial liturgies external to the authorized prayerbook.<br /><br />There may also be a number of other types of liturgies; ritual recognizing a divorce, ritual recognizing the termination of extraordinary life support, etc.<br /><br />But the presence of the liturgy does not force anyone to officiate at such a liturgy. That has always been an option of conscience for TEC clergy from the founding of the church.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-26667260180735242062011-02-10T10:57:19.776-05:002011-02-10T10:57:19.776-05:00That's great, David, and reassuring. Dioceses ...That's great, David, and reassuring. Dioceses like the dozen or so that I named will be able to continue with their worship rites and not have to live with new BCPs which give warrant theologically for SSBs (like the one used in Boston). TEC will not force these Bishops and their dioceses to go this route and all will be well. That is reassuring.<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4193044162086690282011-02-10T01:02:20.305-05:002011-02-10T01:02:20.305-05:00I believe that you are mistaken Kurt. It is wild s...I believe that you are mistaken Kurt. It is wild supposition on your part, and there is no evidence to back the claim.<br /><br />Not one bishop has been forced to ordain women against their conscience. Not one parish that does not want a woman priest has had a woman priest forced upon it. The General Convention has stated that it is time that bishops who do not wish to ordain women to provide options for them to seek ordination without having to move to another diocese. The General Convention has said that bishops should not stand in the way of a parish that wants women clergy. But in the end there is not enforcement mechanism. To claim otherwise is false.<br /><br />Progressives feel the same way regarding SSBs. We are not going to violate someone's conscience and force them to do anything. You have us mistaken for conservatives. They have a history of forcing folks to violate conscience.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-55467069962652112032011-02-09T19:28:58.011-05:002011-02-09T19:28:58.011-05:00I think the zeal/hysteria answers the question for...I think the zeal/hysteria answers the question for you. When people start using the language of purging and no retreat, it is a reasonable conjecture that they will broke no 'diversity' on an issue like this. All will have to come to heel. No diocese will be exempt, for it would be unjust for the GLBT cause. The only two questions are timing and implementation.<br /><br />If the GS decides it wishes to maintain the status quo ante regarding Communion life, one could hope that they would let dioceses which want to maintain that with them do so. <br /><br />So maybe the question is now: why not quit trying to mae sure only your position is the way forward, and let those who wish to remain as formerly--Christians, Anglicans, Episcopalians--do so.<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45115464486067833512011-02-09T15:28:00.625-05:002011-02-09T15:28:00.625-05:00Kurt, you need to ask a member of TEC that questio...Kurt, you need to ask a member of TEC that question. I have not been a member of TEC since 1995 when we here in Mexico became the autonomous province of the Anglican Church of Mexico. I believe that there is room here in Mexico for folks who are conservative in their beliefs about marriage. But there is only civil marriage in Mexico. There is nothing legal about a church wedding here. You need to have been legally married in a civil ceremony before a civil authority before you have a religious ceremony here. I know of no churches that would offer a religious ceremony to anyone who has not previously entered into a civil marriage.<br /><br />Currently here in Mexico we have only two jurisdictions that offer legal civil partnerships for same sex couples. The northern state of Coahuila has civil unions and the Federal District has civil marriages. However, the federal supreme court (11 to 2) has ruled that a same sex marriage performed in the Federal District is to be legally recognized and binding in every state of the Mexican union.<br /><br />I have not heard any news of the instructions to priests one way or the other regarding a generous pastoral response to folks with legal unions or marriages, even with Coahuila part of our Diocese of the North.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-36562462535347025092011-02-09T10:47:36.006-05:002011-02-09T10:47:36.006-05:00I'm curious, David, does TEC have room for dio...I'm curious, David, does TEC have room for dioceses like TN, Dallas, Albany, Springfield, SC, CFL, ND should they decide in convention that Christian Marriage will not extend to SS couples? If not, how will they enforce the new teaching?<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-28717493818378366632011-02-08T23:33:27.877-05:002011-02-08T23:33:27.877-05:00Many of us simply don't agree with that view,
...<i>Many of us simply don't agree with that view,</i><br /><br />And that is OK Kurt.<br /><br />However, when the view that you do hold becomes manifest in your behavior and becomes dangerous to the lives of Mark, Counterlight, Leonardo Ricardo, Erika, Murdock, IT, me and so many other GLBT folks who comment here on Father Mark's blog, or is seen to be dangerous to us by the many non-LGBT folks who comment here, do not be surprised when we respond vocally and perhaps aggressively to counter and defend ourselves and our friends and families from the danger that we feel. We are no longer afraid to fight back. And we are unwilling to cede the ground we have hard fought won. Retreat is not an option.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21536953683992443332011-02-08T17:51:35.745-05:002011-02-08T17:51:35.745-05:00Mr Brunson--medication exists for helping people c...Mr Brunson--medication exists for helping people cope in an adult way with the fact the world does not revolve around them. It helps keep them from spouting off the kind of nonsense you do, when you are obviously unable to control yourself.<br /><br />Erika--I know you believe this is a completely new behavior and that it has no analogies. Many of us simply don't agree with that view, including many who have left behind the notion that being 'Gay' is a created state and one that God somehow intended for them.<br /><br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40319798955098526532011-02-08T08:24:28.609-05:002011-02-08T08:24:28.609-05:00Kurt
I do not believe that Christians used to cosi...Kurt<br />I do not believe that Christians used to cosider the kind of loving stable relationship we are debating these days a sin because this kind of relationship was completely unknown.<br />I believe this is a thoroughly modern problem.<br />It is therefore important to look at the character of relationships Jesus encourages and to assess whether a loving life-long committment by a gay couple fulfils those requirements.<br /><br />So ancient teaching has very little to contribute here.<br />And you can only sin once you're aware of a moral dilemma, so this will be a thoroughly contemporary judgement.<br /><br />As it happens, I don't even believe that God will sit there judging and punishing, but that we will suddenly be aware of his absolute love and the truth that implies. We will all become aware of our shortcomings and that will be bearable only because we shall be held in His love.<br /><br />But how those who are nothing but stumbling stones to people now will feel when they realise just what they've done I have no idea.<br />They shall find out when they come to judge themselves in the light of visible love and truth.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84620701977339813562011-02-08T02:49:24.053-05:002011-02-08T02:49:24.053-05:00Kurt - seems you are in line with what Rowan Willi...Kurt - seems you are in line with what Rowan Williams calls "the mind of the Communion"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-72954780708927525582011-02-08T00:46:29.585-05:002011-02-08T00:46:29.585-05:00Where the saints conflict with Reason, I will thro...Where the saints conflict with Reason, I <i>will</i> throw them out! Don't try the name-calling garbage with me, Kurt. I don't care if you want to yell "heretic," because it's the cry of someone who's already lost. <br /><br />And here's your "Church Fathers'" great contribution - murder, torture, war, the Inquisition, ignorance, starvation, MORE war. Christ came almost 2,000 years ago, laid a framework no human could undo, yet still, <i>still!</i> <b>you</b> people, the church lawyers, terrified of freedom, unable to curb your own unhealthy appetites and so smashing your fists into everyone else's stomachs, all you people still found a way to keep the world from being much better! How amazingly busy you've been.<br /><br />Curl up in your coffins with your saints - they were just men, no more or less "connected" to God than I, or Mark Harris, or Dah-veed, or Mimi, or MadPriest. <br /><br />You're quick to bow to the men and their words when they echo your own prejudices. That is why I have neither respect nor patience for your terribly convenient "faith.". <br /><br />Go - be some backward enclave squatting in the dark, but leave us alone. But, then, you do so enjoy brutalizing us, don't you? You're not Paul preaching to the gentiles, you're Saul, holding the coats and approving.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52691758034233179732011-02-08T00:29:45.641-05:002011-02-08T00:29:45.641-05:00Which is why the ethic of marriage in Judaism was ...<i>Which is why the ethic of marriage in Judaism was regarded as so special in antiquity</i><br /><br />So, how long did you work for the ugly daughter before your cousin gave you the pretty one, Kurt?<br /><br />How many wives and concubines do you have?<br /><br />Marriage in Judaism was not particularly special after all. <br /><br />Like murdering people because they didn't follow your tribal god, really - the same as everyone else.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-28387736791384841702011-02-07T10:09:51.249-05:002011-02-07T10:09:51.249-05:00You will accept of course that the Christian teach...You will accept of course that the Christian teaching which you oppose and the Christians who espouse it are equally likely to use the confident assertions about repentence and judgment about those who depart from it in the name of blessing sin. This is the character of our impasse. You sure they will be judged; they sure you will be. Of course we all will be judged -- what is then our appeal? The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. For one side, he endorses these blessings, where before he opposed them. For the other, he remains merciful in his opposition to same sex practice -- as with manifold other sins that beset the human heart.<br /><br />But you are correct. Judgment will come. <br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-11467302646258892842011-02-06T15:05:21.281-05:002011-02-06T15:05:21.281-05:00Anon
"is your point that the Church of Uganda...Anon<br />"is your point that the Church of Uganda's teaching on sexual conduct (Christian marriage) is un-Christian as such?"<br /><br />No, of course not. What is un-Christian is not to permit same sex couples to marry. <br /><br />And what's even more un-Christian is the passion with which people dislike the supposed sinner, vilify him, condemn him, don't even consider that he might be their equal.<br /><br />Of all of that they will repent. Sooner or later.<br />Of that I have not a shred of doubt.<br />That you don't see it now doesn't mean it's not going to happen.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4240778390838790962011-02-06T08:59:34.745-05:002011-02-06T08:59:34.745-05:00I am not discrediting the work; that has been unde...I am not discrediting the work; that has been undertaken by others more successfully already.<br /><br />My statement had to do with the implications of YOUR comment, not Boswell's -- as I said, he was relying on grafitti, not Billboards.<br /><br />The idea being put forth was that homosexuality practice took on odious opposition latterly, but prior to that, we had a calm period of acceptance (the idea is barking, so perhaps I have not captured it well). That is simply not true. If anything, late antiquity wins the award for the most sustained resistance -- probably because it was more prevalent.<br /><br />It is one thing to make the case for Gay is Good, God made Gays, etc. But not at the cost of projecting such views onto the historical record. That serves no good purpose as it is easily defeated.<br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33373366931050494822011-02-05T22:34:10.513-05:002011-02-05T22:34:10.513-05:00a claim as silly as Boswell's idea of a golden...<i>a claim as silly as Boswell's idea of a golden era were 'gays' were out and proud.</i><br /><br />That is not a Boswell claim. That is your continued mischaracterization of the research in your further feeble attempts to discredit the work.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-80770917664206145762011-02-05T22:31:02.646-05:002011-02-05T22:31:02.646-05:00I realize that the situation is settled as far as ...I realize that the situation is settled as far as the Pawley's Island case is concerned, but that is because Dio SC is in the hands of leadership that purposely has let the SC Supreme Court decision stand. Although the likes of Iker pursued property in the past, it would not behove Dio SC to assist in the demise of their confederates stealing of TEC property too quickly by appealing Pawley's Island to the USSC.<br /><br />We shall see what the US Supreme Court says regarding SCSC's decision about the Denis Canon when one of the other cases is indeed appealed to that body. And you can be sure that one will!Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84239776962032956222011-02-05T18:58:19.212-05:002011-02-05T18:58:19.212-05:00And that would be the same Denis Canon that the SC...And that would be the same Denis Canon that the SC Supreme Court ruled did not do the job?<br /><br />Your 'revisionism' entailed the claim that the US Supreme Court had declared TEC 'hierarchial' -- a claim as silly as Boswell's idea of a golden era were 'gays' were out and proud.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-47608811926293808332011-02-05T18:41:48.892-05:002011-02-05T18:41:48.892-05:00Perhaps Kurt you should actually read the entire d...Perhaps Kurt you should actually read the entire document!<br /><br /><i><b>Under the neutral principles approach, the outcome of a church property dispute is not foreordained.</b> At any time before the dispute erupts, the parties can ensure, if they so desire, that the faction loyal to the hierarchical church will retain the church property. They can modify the deeds or the corporate charter to include a right of reversion or trust in favor of the general church. <b>Alternatively, the constitution of the general church can be made to recite an express trust in favor of the denominational church. The burden involved in taking such steps will be minimal. And the civil courts will be bound to give effect to the result indicated by the parties, provided it is embodied in some legally cognizable form.</b></i><br />Emphasis mine.<br /><br />It was this section in the US Supreme Court's decision Kurt which prompted the Episcopal Church to follow the Supreme Court's behest and enact the Denis Canon, which embodies in TEC's canon law just such an express trust in favor of the denominational church.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-12746590697691080102011-02-05T17:57:23.781-05:002011-02-05T17:57:23.781-05:00"There is pretty chilling material regarding ..."There is pretty chilling material regarding heterosexual practice in the history of humanity" -- you are darn right! Which is why the ethic of marriage in Judaism was regarded as so special in antiquity, and why it is so robustly defended by Christ and his apostles. It set the Christian faithful apart. <br /><br />KurtAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13716688618107868022011-02-05T17:43:02.226-05:002011-02-05T17:43:02.226-05:00Have you ever read the Greco-Roman literature rega...<i>Have you ever read the Greco-Roman literature regarding homosexual practice? Pretty chilling stuff. And, more than 500 years ago!</i><br /><br />No, I am not fixated on the sexual practice of the past, or most contemporary others for that matter. There is pretty chilling material regarding heterosexual practice in the history of humanity as well. GLBT folks did not invent anything Kurt, you lot outnumber us at least 10 to 1. Everything you find about GLBT folks you will find ten times as much or more about you lot.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.com