tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post521747772179201379..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: On Polity #4: The Episcopate.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13894464182272701972012-01-07T07:28:49.931-05:002012-01-07T07:28:49.931-05:00David--I have actually signed my name 'Messeng...David--I have actually signed my name 'Messenger' in the past. This is where Fr Harris got the idea, I suspect. It's just a handle, like Counterlight or Point of Order. I don't google Point of Order to find out what it portends...<br /><br />At any rate, I did appreciate EK's mentioning the 'Sauls plan' because it does touch on the matter of dioceses/Bishop and of course the office of the Presiding Bishop and its costs.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83322221821225206382012-01-06T19:39:27.914-05:002012-01-06T19:39:27.914-05:00That may well be his intent, but it is not a known...That may well be his intent, but it is not a known abbreviation for messenger. Just for kicks, I have now Googled msgr to see what came up, nothing regarding messenger, plenty regarding Monsignor.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69819252516020724542012-01-06T10:10:18.892-05:002012-01-06T10:10:18.892-05:00On EK's 'especially given Sauls' plan ...On EK's 'especially given Sauls' plan to restructure.' I think she is correct to bring this context into play, though perhaps for different reasons.<br /><br />Listening to the blog chatter (and there is a lot of it) the situation is indeed very confusing. That is because people do not agree what problem they are addressing, on the ond hand; and they have visions of the future that are not the same.<br /><br />There seems to be some agreement that the financial situation needs facing. And that a goodly proportion of dioceses are very fragile financially.<br /><br />Beyond that, 1) one group wants to see power move into the GC and HOD; 2) one group wants to see greater 815 hierarchy; 3) one group just wonders how either of these options addresses the financial problem or the sustainability of diocese issue. 2) costs money. 1) costs money. <br /><br />And neither is TEC as it has been in terms of episcopal/diocesan polity. To allow more program to devolve to the diocese (as in the questionaire -- what happened to that project?) at least addresses the financial drain at 815. But it does not fit in with the visions of 1 and 2 above.<br /><br />So the thing is stuck. It can't remain stuck for much longer because the financial reality is a fact on the ground and must be addressed. I think Sauls feels that pinch quite keenly, whatever his own vision for a different TEC might look like.<br /><br />I do believe EK is correct to mention this context.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-749538747513269052012-01-06T09:40:30.222-05:002012-01-06T09:40:30.222-05:00Thank you, Fr Harris. You are correct.
MsgrThank you, Fr Harris. You are correct.<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30455441339753349902012-01-06T03:10:23.560-05:002012-01-06T03:10:23.560-05:00Brother David... I can't spell worth a damn an...Brother David... I can't spell worth a damn and am no better at abbreviations, but why isn't msgr short for messenger rather than monsignor?Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40511226454949544362012-01-05T18:35:46.123-05:002012-01-05T18:35:46.123-05:00Mark - A timely piece with some good questions, es...Mark - A timely piece with some good questions, especially given the Sauls' Plan to "Restructure for mission".<br /><br />As I read the canons, the Episcopacy is all about (1) vision and (2) mission. The "power" of the office rests in the "authority" of the office, which is mostly spiritual but the canons have given more and more corporate authority - especially in the past 30 years as we have moved, more and more, into corporate models of leadership. <br /><br />The "power of the authority" of the bishop is tempered, as I read the canons, by the Standing Committee, Diocesan Council and/or Convention. For example, the bishop can have a vision for program and/or mission, but without the authorization of Convention to approve the $, that ain't happening.<br /><br />It can and does happen because the bishop's major currency is her/his spirituality and charisma. But, if that is compromised in any way (and, we do have some examples of that), the results can be a diocese with their heels dug in deep and the bishop, sooner rather than later, leaves. <br /><br />I'm also concerned with the balance between "evangelism" and "mission" in the Episcopacy - at diocesan and national levels. We want the bishop - the "symbol of the unity of the church". My sense is that, as more and more dioceses are in financial difficulty, more and more bishops are spending less and less time in their dioceses and even less with clergy who are struggling in congregations. <br /><br />These bishops seem to have no real vision for their dioceses (or the church) and they provide no real leadership at the local level. They do seem to like dressing up and being symbols. The question arises, then, how long are we going to be willing to pay top dollar for a 'symbol'. That may sound harsh, but I'm guessing it's not going to take too much longer before the voices that are whispered in church parking lots begins to be asked around Vestry meetings when the line item for contributions to the diocese grows larger than the church's program budget.<br /><br />I'll leave with this story:<br /><br />I was stunned, recently, when I watched a clip of a bishop - who shall go unnamed - who is 'progressive' and known fairly broadly as a 'good guy' - during an episcopal visitation, talking with some kids.<br /><br />"Do you know who I am?" he asked.<br /><br />After some murmur and mumblings in the ranks of the rug rats, one kid shot his hand up and said, "I know! You're a bishop~"<br /><br />And, his grace said, "Well, yes, I'm 'a' bishop but I'm 'the' bishop." And then he added, "Don't forget that. I'm 'the' bishop."<br /><br />I thought, "Oh, my, my, my. It is not well with your soul."Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24969038658029548672012-01-05T15:32:42.940-05:002012-01-05T15:32:42.940-05:00In my studies of Church History I always wondered ...In my studies of Church History I always wondered where anyone got the idea that bishops were a source of unity (especially outside of the diocese). To me the bishops of history seemed mostly to be divisive.<br /><br />Today is no different.<br /><br />Perhaps it is because we are all too human; and too full of ourselves.Deacon Charlie Perrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34975772078369656192012-01-05T00:19:25.282-05:002012-01-05T00:19:25.282-05:00I hope that it is not lost on anyone that Msgr'...I hope that it is not lost on anyone that Msgr's username here is an abbreviation for one of the very titles that Father Mark points out that we do not usually use in the Anglican Communion, Monsignor.<br /><br />Are you assuming to yourself a place of honor Msgr? Are you trying to be more than you really are here among us? Why must every post by Father Mark be a means or an avenue by which you to turn the conversation to some form of denigration of TEC?Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-28022285854211551702012-01-04T14:06:36.166-05:002012-01-04T14:06:36.166-05:00What is not so clear is the relationship between t...<i> What is not so clear is the relationship between the expectations of the BCP and Canons and the expectations of the rather inbred “episcopal” ethos of the church community itself.</i> <br /><br />I think what you mean is the gap between what we wish for and what we have. If I were as optimist I would suggest that gap would be filled by the Holy Spirit; if not the Holy Spirit, then perhaps a spirit of forbearance while we make appropriate canonical adjustments?<br /><br />Perhaps some of the tension that we live with is the tension between authority and power.Point of Orderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11197275383322593717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-44499719655665285212012-01-04T09:28:55.235-05:002012-01-04T09:28:55.235-05:00Also on the topic of Bishops. Jim Naughton has pro...Also on the topic of Bishops. Jim Naughton has provided an extremely helpful perspective when he writes this:<br /><br />“…(T)he General Convention…will probably authorize a rite for the blessing of same-gender relationships. Some bishops will not allow the rite to be used in their diocese, raising an interesting question that won’t be addressed by the church, about whether bishops should be allowed this kind of discretion.”<br /><br />Helpful, because it focuses the polity issue so clearly. <br /><br />He clearly believes small-b 'bishops' are there to implement General Convention 'rulings' (whether they are constitutional or not is irrelevant). That being so, he muses about 'discretion' being allowed. <br /><br />If this is the polity of TEC it should be renamed, "The General Convention Church." <br /><br />If it is indeed "The Episcopal Church" a Diocese has the duty to determine whether it can receive a GC canon or resolution if it judges the ruling against the BCP or the teaching of the church according to scripture. <br /><br />It has always seemed to me that the way Naughton phrases this is in fact the tacit understanding of a great many progressives. Same-sex blessings will be brought in, and if a diocese cannot receive the new teaching, that is where the polity issue will focus itself. For the Bishop and Diocese have their own duties vis-a-vis the constitution and the faith of the church, not to mention their own constitution and canons.<br /><br />I believe this is the arena where the role of Bishop will be severely tested, on the ground, in the next season. I suspect many moderate Bishops will not like this effort to have a "General Convention Church."<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-73056924609232497052012-01-03T10:07:44.182-05:002012-01-03T10:07:44.182-05:00Obviously the costs associated with salaries at 81...Obviously the costs associated with salaries at 815 requires attention -- see The Lead on this. <br /><br />Is your concern about the episcopacy also directed at the PB office and esp its archiepiscopal accoutrement and ambitions? Naughton is calling for curbing that in, given economic realities.<br /><br />It seems to me that one reason for ramping this up was to better situate the polity of TEC as 'hierarchical' so as to win law suits. Naughton appears to believe the lawsuits have gone well and that 'TEC/815' will win what is left. So is the point that the two were linked for expediency sake and can now be unlinked?<br /><br />Your comments on the Episcopacy are a bit vague when it comes to the PB's office and especially its financial costs.<br /><br />Can you say more on this?<br /><br />MsgrMsgrnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-369382143562898932012-01-03T03:28:33.411-05:002012-01-03T03:28:33.411-05:00Some excellent stuff here, Mark!
One aspect I not...Some excellent stuff here, Mark!<br /><br />One aspect I notice (at least in my own church) is that quite a bit of power accrues to the bishop simply by virtue of the bishop's role in licensing clergy and laity to ministry roles. A license given can be withheld or even withdrawn. Cue clergy being diffident and timid in the hearing and seeing of the bishop, especially if they are thinking about their next move. This (again, in my experience) is often not very noticeable because meetings between clergy and bishop are, well, polite and dignified. But I have had occasion to speak up to a bishop or bishops on a matter ... only to be told, "Thank goodness you are willing to speak up; the other clergy are afraid to do so."Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-13788495417098358312012-01-02T22:25:11.364-05:002012-01-02T22:25:11.364-05:00Hi Margaret...I think of you and your move and new...Hi Margaret...I think of you and your move and new work.<br /><br />Yes the Catechism is a good source. But I was interested in looking specifically at the matter of bishops because that office has been such a historical and present issue. The question in a sense is, "why bishops?"<br /><br />All I was trying to do was push on the idea that we ordain bishops for one sort of authority, sort of an authority in community, but the world (and often bishops themselves) push in a very different direction. The push is for bishops who are authoritarian, whose power is "from above" and not from within the community.<br /><br />It would be interesting to see just how the catechism relates to the various vows taken in baptism, ordination, life unions, etc. <br /><br />I will go off and think more on what you say.<br /><br />Thanks.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14701479160973198542012-01-02T21:44:51.347-05:002012-01-02T21:44:51.347-05:00I think our Catechism spells out the power and aut...I think our Catechism spells out the power and authority of Christian ministry fairly well.<br /><br />Q. Who are the ministers of the Church?<br />A. The ministers of the Church are lay persons, bishops, priests, and deacons.<br /><br />--with lay persons first --because without the laos --the laity, there are no bishops, priest and deacons. Yes, bishops are the primary order from which the ordained are ordered. But bishops are not the primary 'order' of the Church --the laos are.<br /><br />(BCP, p855)<br /><br />I wonder if a re-visit to this little bit and the bits that follow in the discussion of ministry in our catechism might serve us better than ordination vows etc.it's margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13577280471100732619noreply@blogger.com