tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post522010074668134382..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Can The Episcopal Church become a lean, green mission machine?Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54127253451547371742010-04-13T00:41:42.157-04:002010-04-13T00:41:42.157-04:00Still don't believe anything on orthodite blog...Still don't believe anything on orthodite blogs. I've had too much experience of orthodites lying. Sorry.<br /><br />And, given your attitude towards the workability of Christian mission in TEC, you may want to take your own advice. <br /><br />Otherwise, I would ask, what is your purpose here? We're not going to listen to you, so it must just be coming here to hurt. It won't hurt just us, but you, as well. God is not served, because there is no coexistence, any longer, and both must fight until there is either no one left or we are too tired to carry on. There is no point in carrying it down to this personal level.<br /><br />Personally, I'm done with it. Your words, like Babyblue's, and Lawrence's and Matt Kennedy's and so on, have no effect on me and no truth in them, so there is no longer a point in trying to engage on this level. Let the war continue, but the private battles of equally-matched precious humans is pointless and destructive to the only thing that matters, those human beings. <br /><br />It's bad enough that there will be no peace in our time.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-60557440693885656962010-04-10T11:25:34.547-04:002010-04-10T11:25:34.547-04:00mark,
so what is the mission of TEC? how do you h...mark,<br /><br />so what is the mission of TEC? how do you have a clear "mission" as a church when your leadership can't even decide which parts of the Bible they agree with? how do you come up with a focused idea of "our mission" when you have competing forces coming from opposite extremes? (ie. Spong to Lawrence within TEC)<br />-Josh H<br /><br />also, just because you might not agree with some of the posts on babyblue doesn't mean they aren't true or have merit. it would be equally unfair to say everything that ENS posts is rubbish...which isn't true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-53552426352850861712010-04-10T00:30:50.835-04:002010-04-10T00:30:50.835-04:00I wouldn't trust a post on Babyblue telling me...I wouldn't trust a post on Babyblue telling me the sky is up!MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15391911471303604012010-04-09T19:07:31.292-04:002010-04-09T19:07:31.292-04:00Granted that I am something of a "know nothin...Granted that I am something of a "know nothing" when it comes to TEC business. But I am intrigued by this fellow http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com/2010/04/episcopal-bishop-of-virginia-and.html Surely he is not a "know nothing" when it comes to TEC's way of going about things!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-60976196597827315862010-04-08T02:15:47.635-04:002010-04-08T02:15:47.635-04:00Oh, I just noticed this!
Can it??
Not one chanc...Oh, I just noticed this! <br /><br /><i>Can it??<br />Not one chance in ten thousand!<br />(Dan)</i><br /><br />So, better chances than being resurrected from the dead? Easy-peasy for Jesus!<br /><br />Thanks for the encouragement, Dan!MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45922351417031064922010-04-08T00:58:41.307-04:002010-04-08T00:58:41.307-04:00Oh! You got me, Yawner. I'm a human who does...Oh! You got me, Yawner. I'm a human who doesn't claim to speak for God!<br /><br />Yes. I do have issues. Since you've been so mysterious, let me clarify so there won't be any misunderstanding: they are financial issues, coupled with *GASP* severe chronic depression. <br /><br />Now, I'm sure that you didn't <i>mean</i> to be so typically orthodite as to write something half-revealed in public to make it seem like I'm a dangerous madman, or something - rather like one of your friends e-mailed to me earlier today. I'm sure, as a reader of my blog, you didn't <i>intend</i> to take quotes from a blog in which I <b>consistently</b> point out that I will speak from emotion, regardless of action - to obfuscate in that wise would be un-Christian, and you constantly tell us how much better a Christian you are than us.<br /><br />Just to clarify, I have no problem with the use of force against the growing violence of the tea-partiers. "Tenka Fubu" also means to unite the land under one arm through force. I'm not a nice person. I have no problem with that, either. Right now, right-wingers are tearing our entire nation in two, and will soon transform us into a Third World nation unless we act quickly. Is that Christlike to take action against them? No. I'm not Christ. I sin - boldly, when necessary - and repent most of the time. If you were afraid I was advocating violence against you, why didn't you just ask, since you <i>read</i> so often . . . "brother?"<br /><br />Could you confess anything in yourself so publicly and clearly, assumed-name-Yawner? <br /><br />I. Didn't. Think. So.<br /><br />I'm honest, up front, and vulnerable. I learned it from Jesus. You may want to try finding out about Him. Interesting guy. Believed nothing that you do, and surprisingly little that I do.<br /><br />Now, you still haven't managed to put me on the defensive, because my faith is strong, my conviction that what we're doing is right is strong. <br /><br />I still want you to leave.<br /><br />I want you to leave because I can feel some degree of detached love for you and others, and wish you to find someplace you'll be happy. I doubt you can be happy, but that's because you enjoy being miserable. You'll leave when we won't be miserable with you. <br /><br />Anything else you want clarified, you take it up with me on <b>my</b> blog. You don't come over here and try to rally pity on someone else's.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-56935560330587163502010-04-08T00:33:48.367-04:002010-04-08T00:33:48.367-04:00My point, Mr. Carrell, is that something is always...My point, Mr. Carrell, is that <i>something</i> is <i>always</i> going to influence the "communion." <br /><br />Put flatly, the problems in New Zealand are yours. I don't expect you to be responsible for Bob Duncan, who I consider to be a major spokesman for your point of view. <br /><br />Your unhappiness is completely your creation. You can deal with it, or you can blame it on others. I am sorry for you that you are so unhappy, but TEC can't be held responsible for that, any more than you can be held responsible for Bob Duncan, or Peter Akinola.<br /><br />You see, this is why I have trouble taking you seriously - we're "brothers" when you want us to do something, but not when we want you to do something. <br /><br />I'm not impressed by these complaints, and frankly don't care about a false communion, which is what this has always been. You want to blame someone else because the message you preach no longer washes. <br /><br />Finally, I'm not asking you to go away. PB aside, and she is no more important than the House of Deputies, you simply have no say or comprehension of what's going on here. It's not a wish, or a command, or a plea to leave us alone, you simply are not part of us. Sorry. <br /><br />The wakeup call has come: this "communion" was never anything but a vanity project to allow bishops to meet and play at Vatican. We in the pews don't care. If you need help, we'll send it, other than that, we're not interested in being like you are. <br /><br />Now, in the end, there are two choices. You can sit in the dust, throwing ashes on your head and telling everybody how mistreated you've been - half the people won't care, the other half will be glad it's you. Or, you can stand up, act like adults, and try to figure out why people aren't buying what you're selling. Maybe it is that they are just "The World" and not interested in Jesus, though, from where I stand, most of "The World" ascribes to your point of view. Still, maybe you are holier than the rest of us, in which case, congratulations, here's your certificate and a reminder that Hell's gates are locked from the inside. If you want to be unhappy, you'll find plenty of people to be unhappy with when TEC's gone - as I pray we soon will be from the AC. <br /><br />So, there you are - New Zealand is where you are; if you don't like what papers in New Zealand publish, it's your right to complain about it, but, complaining to us is pointless; see, we figure if you censure one person, we'll wind up censuring whoever is the scapegoat de jour. We haven't even censured Mark Lawrence and his gang - condemned what they say, but not prevented him from saying it. So, that being the case, perhaps it might be a bit more realistic to actually work on whatever you're doing or not doing to cause people in New Zealand to find Spong's message preferable to yours.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-20910997621584286832010-04-07T14:49:09.092-04:002010-04-07T14:49:09.092-04:00Hi Mark Brunson,
Thank you for your interesting c...Hi Mark Brunson,<br /><br />Thank you for your interesting catalogue of the many and varied difficult situations across our frail and fallible Communion. It could well be that history judges TEC to have been most unfairly singled out for attention through these years; and it could also be that history will demonstrate the singular success of the mission of TEC in its lean, green mission machine form which Mark Harris envisages.<br /><br />However I do not think that in any way alters the fact that, as I observed, "TEC's ideas and actions seem to have a considerable bearing on the future of the Communion!".<br /><br />Whether we stay together or fly apart, whether any or no member churches are suspended, expelled or newly welcomed, what is happening in TEC has a considerable bearing on the future of the Communion.<br /><br />I presume that my sense of that is shared by the Presiding Bishop herself, given that she has felt it important to communicate to her fellow primates at this time, http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/episcopal_church/pb_writes_fellow_primates_rega.html !!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-92199909260047403972010-04-07T11:15:40.377-04:002010-04-07T11:15:40.377-04:00MarkB (but David read this also),
As you have wri...MarkB (but David read this also),<br /><br />As you have written on your blog many times, you have issues which you acknowledge. I hate even getting into this because of that. That's hard to get across on the internet. Anyone wondering can go to the March 8 post on your blog for a fairly concise summary. <br /><br />But since David wanted an answer....<br /><br />You ask how the actions of people like MarkB might drive me out. Okay, some quotes from Mark's writings ought to do the trick, and then ask yourself if you'd want to stay in Mark's parish - or church- as a conservative. All of these can be found at http://eamaa.blogspot.com/ which is his blog.<br /><br />"Okay, while it is somewhat amusing to watch my fellow progressives looking the classic deer-in-the-headlights in the face of open, ugly, naked, violent aggression from a conservative America which has lost all mental and moral direction, here's why you need people like me;<br /><br />Sometimes, a brutal, decisive and very physical exertion of power is perfectly appropriate, even in defense of a greater Peace. Tenka Fubu. Look it up."<br /><br />David- "Tenka Fubu" means "Spread the militarism over the whole land". He goes on to say he's "perfectly serious in the above comments."<br /><br />Another one: "I rapidly feel I'm becoming a liberal Glenn Beck. I can say that. If you do, I'll eat your children for comparing me to Glenn Beck." <br /><br />At Grandmere Mimi's in a comment, he wrote: "Yes. I'm in a particularly nasty and unforgiving mood toward conservatives and the mindless apes they stir up. "<br /><br />Now, David, perhaps Mark isn't representative. That would be a very fair thing to say. Of course, if you choose to say that, then you must also acknowledge some conservatives aren't representative. (I am not referring to Matt here, because I hold him in extremely high regard and would love in some ways to have him as my priest.)<br /><br />MarkB would consider it of great benefit if I left. Others- like Elizabeth Kaeton- would like me to change my mind but if I don't would also consider it of great benefit if I left. <br /><br />Simply put, there are many loud voices in TEC who do not want conservatives to stay. They want those individuals to stay, but they don't want them to remain conservative. And the more TEC heads in the direction of ditching the past (which you would categorize as "growing in understanding" of course), the more traditionalists have no place. Will it be my choice? I suppose so, but only in that I will have been left with no other option.<br /><br />And the more people like me leave, which they've been doing, the more TEC loses its silver (to use Mark's term)- not because we take it with us, but instead because TEC can't afford to maintain it.Yawnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21982049628417108222010-04-07T00:42:48.111-04:002010-04-07T00:42:48.111-04:00If you're chased out, Yawner, I will consider ...If you're chased out, Yawner, I will consider that a great benefit to both you and us. You do nothing but hurt us and we you, at this point. However, this is simply your paranoia, as we both know. The only one who can make you leave is you. It will always be <i>your</i> choice. Trying being adult enough to own up to that! <br /><br />I've never claimed to be God, btw. I just know the difference between actual right and wrong, rather than pretending fairy tales that have never worked for anyone somehow work. As to judgment, where you end up is between you and God, but I'm quite entitled to discern, as Paul would say, when someone - like you - is merely an ill-tempered, spoiled adolescent seeking to blackmail everyone else to their will. It's our fault. We've spoiled you, so sorry you're having difficulty being a grown up now. <br /><br />In the end, stay or go, I don't care, but 1) it's your choice and no harm to you at all, and 2)you're no brother to me, have never tried to be, so don't pretend.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-19580880194075481362010-04-07T00:34:33.874-04:002010-04-07T00:34:33.874-04:00Mr. Carrell,
I have a great deal of difficulty wi...Mr. Carrell,<br /><br />I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea that we have that much bearing on the "communion." <br /><br />I don't buy it at all.<br /><br />You've never much cared about us before. Across the "communion," provinces have been allowed to extol violence against Muslims, gays, supposed "witches," violence and abuse of children and women has been considered a mere cultural differences, changes to the traditional form of worship and who can lead it are considered hokey-dokey, the gospel is twisted to support naked ambition and power-mongering, the political machinations called the 39 Articles are raised to the level of Scripture, and TEC is told to shut up and sit down - and, graciously enough, we have. We've allowed you to have your way with your own provinces - lazily, really - despite the harm it does. <br /><br />You see, Mr. Carrell, this "communion" has been our brothers and sisters only when it's served to get you something - just like the orthodite pretenders in the U. S. You want us to do what you want, and, suddenly, we're all one big family that <i>we</i> are tearing apart.<br /><br />Errant nonsense.<br /><br />The hand cannot say to the foot . . . except you've never been part of our body. I suspect the only reason we haven't simply been booted out was to get a piece of that U. S. money pie. Well, we've got no money, now, just like everybody else, so the pretense can stop. <br /><br />We are angry enough to wake up and realize this has never been a family, but an abusive and dysfunctional collective of petty would-be princes who care nothing for humankind. We are awake enough now to realize how much damage we've caused the world by enabling this horrible force and are beginning to extricate ourselves. We won't simply bugger off because we still hope to influence you to the better, but we won't bow to the lie of "family" anymore, because it never has been. <br /><br />If you won't change for the better, if you throw us out, others have begun to awaken, too. I hope they'll come with us, and we'll make a better world. <br /><br />Doubtless, you'll get the Americans you want, as well. Good luck with them. We will always be grateful to you, because, by your mistreatment, you spurred us to greater things - you sacrificed your own spiritual well-being for our growth. How marvelous! But, the vision you offer doesn't work, hasn't work, and does demonstrable harm. We say "No more." <br /><br />You have no say in TEC. We are betrayed, we are angry, and we are waking up.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70209374406870542242010-04-06T18:27:32.756-04:002010-04-06T18:27:32.756-04:00david,
"thieves"? maybe toning down you...david,<br /><br />"thieves"? maybe toning down your vitriol towards those of us who removed ourselves from TEC might put your opinions in a better light. <br /><br />the "Christian" charity you grant us is quite lacking in your posts.<br /><br />i find it funny...the amount of angst spewed at ACNA on these blogs...and much of it coming from Priests no less! throwing rocks when you live in a glass house...a glass house that supports bad theology, a rejection of Christ as the ONLY WAY, a rejection of Biblical sexual standards, unfettered abortion rights, and whatever hip "liberal" social cause seems to be "in" this week.<br /><br />your "mission" is to proclaim Jesus Christ as the WAY. THE WAY. your mission is to build up believers in the Faith. how do you become mission minded when the leaders of your denominations can't even figure out which parts of the Bible they even believe? which parts are factual this week? which other sexualities will be discovered this week? which "justice" issue will we tackle this week (as long as it doesn't involve the rights of the unborn...)?<br /><br />Hope that works out for you.<br />-Josh H.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83455787845035135432010-04-06T16:15:42.732-04:002010-04-06T16:15:42.732-04:00Hi MarkBrunson,
I am not a member of TEC, I think...Hi MarkBrunson,<br /><br />I am not a member of TEC, I think I am conservative, but I don't think I am angry :)<br /><br />I belong to a member church of the Anglican Communion, however, and I notice that TEC's ideas and actions seem to have a considerable bearing on the future of the Communion! So I take an interest in what is going on in TEC ... wondering, for example, if what happens there presages what will happen in my own church in New Zealand. <br /><br />I can appreciate that TEC would like to get on with its own business without pesky 'outlier' commenters such as myself. I wonder if people inside TEC such as yourself can appreciate the influence TEC has around the world? Just a few days ago, Holy Saturday 2010, several NZ newspapers featured Bishop John Spong and his latest book, including full colour photo of him in his purple shirt and black suit, as their 'religious' contribution to Easter weekend. Last time I checked +Spong remains in good standing inside TEC, his views never challenged by the ecclesial discipline of TEC. So, there you are, even way down under, TEC's imprimatur contributes to the religious life of another nation!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45453725629732230842010-04-06T12:21:48.152-04:002010-04-06T12:21:48.152-04:00Yawner, please share with us how the actions of Ma...Yawner, please share with us how the actions of Mark B and I would chase you and your family out of TEC?Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34887388464746882952010-04-06T09:05:33.697-04:002010-04-06T09:05:33.697-04:00MarkBrunson,
You aren't God. You seem to thi...MarkBrunson,<br /><br />You aren't God. You seem to think you are, passing judgement and thinking you know all. <br /><br />I am a member of TEC. Others posting here are. I am a very involved member of a parish in Fr. Harris' diocese. I choose to remain anonymous here so as to not cause or contribute to tension in my parish.<br /><br />I have every right as a member of TEC to be conservative. I have every right to think it is scandalous that lawsuits are being filed, and that TEC has adopted a policy that it will sell church property to Muslims, Unitarians, atheists... anyone but departing congregation. As I said above, TEC is actually giving away the silver in cases where it refuses to sell to the departing flock and either accepts a lower price or lets a building sit empty or decay. <br /><br />If my family gets chased out of TEC, I assure you it will be much more the result of people like you and David, and the actions of General Convention, than it will be the result of anything other conservatives do.Yawnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41537676199918196692010-04-06T01:20:28.196-04:002010-04-06T01:20:28.196-04:00Such anger from conservative Christians, yet no re...Such anger from conservative Christians, yet no responsibility for the anger they cause. <br /><br />Curious.<br /><br />And, again, thanks for your concern to those who aren't members of TEC but . . . you're not members of TEC.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62464378813298106812010-04-05T17:31:49.780-04:002010-04-05T17:31:49.780-04:00Matt, in deference to Father Mark's wishes, I ...Matt, in deference to Father Mark's wishes, I withdraw from anything more regarding how I view your comportment.<br /><br />Peter, can you never speak for yourself? Why must you always pretend to be representing the vast unspoken majority of the Anglican Communion? You are nothing more in the Communion that the rest of us, a member through your membership in your province. And yet you cannot write anything in which you do not invoke that huge mass of folks that you believe is behind you. It is my experience that you do not speak for the majority which you imagine. It is my experience that many of the majority have no idea what is being spoken in their name, nor is it of interest to them and their lives.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-42516372757786100632010-04-05T16:54:20.629-04:002010-04-05T16:54:20.629-04:00I think it's very sad that so quickly the disc...I think it's very sad that so quickly the discussion of your paper -- the focus of which was "How can Executive Council more effectively fuel God's mission 'out there'?" -- turned to internal church concerns.<br /><br />Mark, I thank you for your paper and look forward to substantive discussion of it.Sarah Dylan Breuerhttp://www.sarahlaughed.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-55528072311067090052010-04-05T16:30:27.159-04:002010-04-05T16:30:27.159-04:00Friends: pretty soon I will tire of people beating...Friends: pretty soon I will tire of people beating up on Matt Kennedy and or the diocese he used to belong to. We all have other fish to fry. (And maybe a better chance there of meeting the Lord.) <br /><br />When that happens I will immoderately cut the conversation off.<br /> (sigh)Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78665536440210998732010-04-05T16:00:51.929-04:002010-04-05T16:00:51.929-04:00So TEC does not wish to reward "dishonest thi...So TEC does not wish to reward "dishonest thieves"? It could help the Anglican Communion of which TEC wishes to be a continuing member to better support TEC in the advancement of its true Anglican mission if some one could point out where (a) Episcopalian clergy formerly in good standing with TEC have been tried and convicted by an ecclesial court of being "dishonest thieves", (b) a convincing argument could be adduced that selling or leasing church property to departing congregations amounts to a "reward", and (c) a convincing argument could be presented that the cause of the gospel of Jesus Christ is enhanced by not "rewarding" departing Episcopalians in this way, but, instead, by "rewarding" the missional aims of another religion.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89333016611061261402010-04-05T12:36:23.555-04:002010-04-05T12:36:23.555-04:00It does not matter how the Episcopal Church restru...It does not matter how the Episcopal Church restructures. It is on a death spiral. As far as I can discern, its central message is "Believe what you like; just be willing to take communion with whoever else shows up, be quiet if you disagree with some policies we adopt, and be open to becoming a liberal democrat - or at least to working on some of our local aid projects."<br /><br />The Episcopal Church has sought to transcend theology. It is impossible for a religious body not to have some core and unchanging convictions about the nature of reality and the character and desires of a divinity - or divinities, as the case may be. Ceremonies such as the Eucharist are meant to reflect underlying core convictions about who God is, what he has done for us, and what he wants from us. You cannot have a free-floating theology and have a religious body that will be attractive and energetic.<br /><br />To the degree that the Episcopal Church is attractive to those not in it in these times, it is attractive mainly to those from a Roman Catholic or conservative Protestant background who see Christianity from those perspectives as being legalistic and guilt-inducing, and so they want an expression of faith that does not burden them with guilt. I am not surprised by such a move; conservative Christianity will convict one of guilt - but when it is truly heard, the burden of guilt is replaced by the free offer of grace and mercy through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is no simple thing to confess that one is in rebellion against his creator; indeed, one may do so, according to Eph 2, only by the grace of God to begin with. I am not surprised that there are those who seek to assuage their guilt by going to a body that has "all of the pageantry and none of the guilt."<br /><br />I left ECUSA last fall and joined ACNA. I had avoided attending diocesan gatherings for some time before that, for to participate in the Eucharist with my fellow clergy said that I was accepting that their beliefs about Jesus' nature, work, and promises were compatible with my own convictions about Jesus - and I knew that not only were they not compatible, but in many cases were diametrically opposed. I could not in good conscience sit at the Lord's Table with them.<br /><br />As things stand now, those who believe Jesus to be simply one prophet among many and for whom the cross is but an example and the resurrection but a symbol have taken control of the organization of the Episcopal Church. The price for conservatives to remain within the organization is to accept those with "progressive" theology as being equally in fellowship with God. I cannot do so, because the Scriptures portray a God who is (to the degree we poor mortals can understand him) as described in the Creeds, the Chalcedonian formula, and the XXXIX Articles.<br /><br />If you want to restructure the Episcopal Church, go ahead - but no not be surprised when decline continues, for you will be organizing around an empty center.Hiramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00845924600039905182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16791060373368951932010-04-05T11:27:38.916-04:002010-04-05T11:27:38.916-04:00Hi David...so interesting how differently you spea...Hi David...so interesting how differently you speak here than you do at Stand Firm. So, how am I a "dishonest thief" and, speaking of lies, where do you get the information you pass on with regard to the relationship between the local Catholic parish and ourselves.<br /><br />MattMatt Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10975005135486296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-48581779691699947692010-04-05T10:36:16.667-04:002010-04-05T10:36:16.667-04:00David,
You want facts, and you're not using f...David,<br /><br />You want facts, and you're not using facts. The RCC DID offer Matt Kennedy hospitality at first. Straight-up hospitality.<br /><br />And then, later, they sold the building. TEC was unwilling to sell its building- for which it had no use- to Matt Kennedy. Did TEC get more or less for its building because of its refusal to sell to Matt et al? That is the prime question. <br /><br />I feel fairly confident TEC lost a fair amount of silver by its choice to sell to anyone but Matt.Yawnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54514422104203298582010-04-04T17:48:23.730-04:002010-04-04T17:48:23.730-04:00As I plainly stated Peter, the idea is not to rewa...As I plainly stated Peter, the idea is not to reward dishonest thieves. Period.<br /><br />Some wishy washy bishops have let parishes "buy" the property.<br /><br />Matt Kennedy is a prime example of "dishonest thieves", so please, do not disrespectfully fling him in our faces. The RCC did not offer them hospitality, it unloaded a building and a house for which it had no use. Instead of loosing money, it now has a cash flow from the deal.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61604630224864825672010-04-04T05:29:59.937-04:002010-04-04T05:29:59.937-04:00Thank you for responses to my last post. I am, to ...Thank you for responses to my last post. I am, to be frank, less than convinced that what I said has actually been read with due care by those who have responded negatively. Let me post one paragraph again and then ask a question:<br /><br />"I think it fair to make a distinction between disputes in which TEC's lawyers work for the concerns of Episcopalians who do not wish to go with the departing Anglicans, that is, concerns about continued access of parishioners to familiar places of worship, and straightforward retention of property even when the result of that retention is going to be the sale of a redundant building to anyone but the departing Anglicans."<br /><br />I think this paragraph is quite clear in its recognition of obligations on TEC to take reasonable legal means to ensure continuity of worship spaces for Episcopalians.<br /><br />My question is this: if those departing are willing to purchase property which is otherwise redundant, will TEC sell it to those departing?<br /><br />In the case of Matt Kennedy and his parish in Central New York it seems extraordinary that (a) the local Roman Catholic church can provide hospitality for them, while (b) the Diocese has sold the buildings to a non-Anglican/Episcopalian party.Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.com