tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post7022081489202331207..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Orombi's letter to Canterbury, sour grapes and bitter gripes.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83247150576072286722010-04-14T03:00:14.900-04:002010-04-14T03:00:14.900-04:00++Orombi's letter has been followed by one fro...++Orombi's letter has been followed by one from ++Ernest.....wonder who will write today?<br /><br />I agree with Mr Weir.....splitting is not a disaster. Especially not if it comes with greater integrity than staying together and compromising principles in order to do that.Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-56958611178942563382010-04-13T14:56:49.375-04:002010-04-13T14:56:49.375-04:00Hi Lisa
I read what you wrote which is this:
&qu...Hi Lisa<br /><br />I read what you wrote which is this:<br /><br />"My preference would be to have the Anglican Consultative Council in the fore. <br /><br />If not them, then at least it should be all the bishops of the Communion."<br /><br />It struck me that, with your second preference expressed in that sentence, you were giving 'credence' to the possibility of AC decisions being made by all the bishops of the AC meeting together. I found that surprising.<br /><br />I am also surprised that misreading is a sign of schismatic tendencies :)Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-186519889771960492010-04-13T11:09:46.579-04:002010-04-13T11:09:46.579-04:00Well Lisa Fox,
RE: Peter Carrell:
What an incred...Well Lisa Fox,<br /><br />RE: Peter Carrell:<br /><br />What an incredibly hateful thing to say as you try to prove your point.<br /><br />Sounding desperate are we?Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66924975199596664912010-04-13T00:19:11.393-04:002010-04-13T00:19:11.393-04:00The AC has never been anything other than an entir...The AC has never been anything other than an entirely social little observance. To say it has ever had any legislative authority over its member churches is, quite simply, untrue. To repeat the untruth is to lie with an agenda. <br /><br />Not a single liberal or moderate cared about the AC or the ABofC before the orthodites tried to seize control of both to do an end-run on the church that wouldn't bend over to them. They have rallied other "conservatives" in the communion, preying on their constant - perhaps deserved - sense of marginalization. They have particularly played off the historical marginalization and resentment in the Third World, whipping up a toxic little racist tempest, stroking egos outrageously bloated by self-doubt and <i>real</i> threat from Muslims to feed their crusade to crush the Anglican Communion into an "orthodites only" club. <br /><br />It's precisely the same goal that was fulfilled in the Southern Baptist Convention, but stymied by a better informed and broader-minded "local" community - so, the Big Lie had to be taken overseas and a new Magisterium concocted to break TEC. <br /><br />It won't work. We'll take being thrown out, losing church property, everything else, and we'll join with Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and, perhaps, moderate provinces absolutely horrified as they realize the hostile takeover. We'll even evangelize in Britain - where we've been asked to help liberal churches, but have not done so because we are still part of the Anglican Communion, for now. <br /><br />In the meantime, the rest of the orthodite world is going to find out that they had better fall in line with their new American masters in ACNA, or they'll be cut off PDQ. They are not your friends.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25564513107653181252010-04-12T23:28:10.007-04:002010-04-12T23:28:10.007-04:00Peter Carrell, did you intentionally misread my co...Peter Carrell, did you intentionally misread my comment? I said my preference would be to have the entire Anglican Concultative Counsel make the decisions. I spoke in favor of having ALL the orders of ministry involved in the decision. <br /><br />I can only assume you either cannot read or you willfully misread my comment. But that's what the schismatics do.Lisa Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00881671380217888810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-5991290313707881462010-04-12T21:35:32.098-04:002010-04-12T21:35:32.098-04:00"In that way the millions of Anglicans would ...<i>"In that way the millions of Anglicans would be speaking through the Primates."</i> As they did through the machinations of a small, well-organized group at Dar-es-Salaam, Peter Carrell? - a potent argument against according any Communion-wide authority to the primates' group.<br /><br />Those who love to cite Lambeth 1.10 tend to ignore V.13 - <br /><br /><i>This Conference:<br /><br />1. reaffirms Resolution 72 of the Lambeth Conference of 1988 "Episcopal Responsibilities and Diocesan Boundaries"; and<br /><br />2. requests the Primates to encourage the bishops of their Province to consider the implications of Resolution 72 of the Lambeth Conference 1988.</i><br /><br />1988 Resolution 72 reads, in part, that<br /><br /><i>This Conference:<br /><br />1. reaffirms its unity in the historical position of respect for diocesan boundaries and the authority of bishops within these boundaries; and in light of the above<br /><br />2. affirms that it is deemed inappropriate behaviour for any bishop or priest of this Communion to exercise episcopal or pastoral ministry within another diocese without first obtaining the permission and invitation of the ecclesial authority thereof.</i><br /><br /><i>"....deemed inappropriate behaviour></i>! Tell that <b>yet again</b> to Orombi, to Akinola and to the deposed ex-bishop of Pittsburgh.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41039261688172786152010-04-12T18:33:57.092-04:002010-04-12T18:33:57.092-04:00I like what the Bishop of Virginia said about the ...I like what the Bishop of Virginia said about the whole thing. In denying Mary Glasspool consent he made a great case for how TEC's House of Bishops and revisionist leaders have famously gotten the "cart before the horse" and in the process have gone back on agreed upon procedures and agreed upon promises.<br /><br />THAT from a guy who IS a revisionist!Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34125392132486848952010-04-12T17:48:13.744-04:002010-04-12T17:48:13.744-04:00James in SC may well be right that TEC cannot foll...James in SC may well be right that TEC cannot follow its current path and still in communion with most of the churches of the Anglican Communion. While I do not welcome that possibility, I do not see it as the disaster that some do. It would not be a disaater for there to be two Communions, holding different convictions on how much diversity on such issues as human sexuality is allowed. There would be some loss, but there might well be some gains and over time the two might realized that they can work together in mission - just as liberal and conservatives are now working together.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4417124358911795132010-04-12T16:54:54.880-04:002010-04-12T16:54:54.880-04:00Aloha Kakou-
Re ++Orombi's letter - there we h...Aloha Kakou-<br />Re ++Orombi's letter - there we have it out front - the true issue is really who has the power to decide and who gets to control the beliefs and acts of other Churches. The "presenting issue" is merely a convenient way for the bishops of parts of Africa and the Southern Cone and their conservative Republican American bankers of politically to dress up the real issue - how to force the American Church to be a repressive and conservative force both socially and theologically.<br /><br />Re some of the other comments - Why are so many assuming that the Anglican Communion is or should be more than it actually is - a consensual body of mutual ministry based on common traditions and mutual affection. Anything more than that is a "Church" which we are decidedly not. Remember the ABC has no authority in Wales, Scotland and Ireland. If people have a need for more power, they are welcome to construct their own organization. Please leave ours alone.Fr. Bill Albingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62605558433952956852010-04-12T15:25:38.623-04:002010-04-12T15:25:38.623-04:00"And if the ABC ignores GAFCON Primates, what..."And if the ABC ignores GAFCON Primates, what Communion has he got left?"<br /><br />A healthier one?Caminantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16610142955176992982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50045394871774426932010-04-12T15:00:33.870-04:002010-04-12T15:00:33.870-04:00My support for greater recognition of the Primates...My support for greater recognition of the Primates Meeting is not support for (so to speak) 38 individuals being given power to decide all things Anglican. It is support for the Primates gathering to speak on some Anglican matters because on those matters they can confidently bring the mind of their respective churches to the meeting. In that way the millions of Anglicans would be speaking through the Primates.<br /><br />I find it slightly ironic that Lisa Fox should give credence to all the Anglican bishops meeting together to make a decision. That happened in 1998 and Resolution 1.10 resulted. Logically that means, on Lisa's view, that that resolution has effect in the Communion!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69593383161236353192010-04-12T11:56:30.483-04:002010-04-12T11:56:30.483-04:00As I recall the Primates are the new kids on the b...As I recall the Primates are the new kids on the block, despite the bishop's prattle.<br /><br />MarilynAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-47019466322434194262010-04-12T09:51:19.698-04:002010-04-12T09:51:19.698-04:00Observer has got one thing absolutely right. Liber...Observer has got one thing absolutely right. Liberals want no covenant or a covenant that has a pro-Glasspool potential or nihil obstat. <br />Do liberals believe that such a covenant would be adopted or genuinely operative for 70% (that's a low estimate) of the Anglican Communion? The clear answer is No. <br />So the cost of gaining the activist agenda of new-TEC is the loss of 70% of the Communion as existed not 10 years ago. <br />Quibble with the details, but the bottom line is clear. The new-TEC agenda cannot be accommodated in a covenant that the Communion would agree to. I realise that is a fully acceptable and exciting prospect for one kind of liberal. What I do not understand is the idea that the new-TEC can have its activist agenda and the Communion both. It can't. The result will be 70% of the ertswhile Anglican Communion splintering off, the dissolution of the Primates Meeting and Lambeth Conference, and an ACC in charge of what is left. <br />If anyone is in doubt about this, they are living in imaginary space. The only question is: is this an acceptable outcome? To repeat, I know it is for some. To have 10-15 Million anglicans (out of 80 Million) headed by the new-TEC and that being the outcome is exciting and refreshing for many. This will be a largely white, anglo-saxon federation. The See of Canterbury will dissolve as a historic See and lose the centrality that gave any logic to catholic anglicanism in the first place. The 70-80% that remains in the former Communion will likely continue to exist in some form. <br />So Observer is very right. This is where things are now headed, especially if the ABC ignores the GS as many are hoping for.<br />James in SC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-71410189297189781752010-04-12T09:47:16.272-04:002010-04-12T09:47:16.272-04:00Observer,
Without the Primates and the ACC and ev...Observer,<br /><br />Without the Primates and the ACC and even Lambeth itself, we would have what we have now; thoughtful consultation with other churches that share the same practice of worship who have cultural ties to the COE.<br /><br />The Global Anglican Church is just that: Global. No one ABp or group of Primates has "control" over what happens in the church. And frankly, they shouldn’t.<br /><br />In this season of Easter, I can only ask, where is room for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (using the traditional words) to work outside our human institutions.<br /><br />It seems there is an awful lot of argument from Scripture and Tradition. Where are we being informed by reason?<br /><br />TEC does not seek to impose its understanding on others. How can the GAFCON primates start with punishment and then seek reconciliation?<br /><br />I would love to believe there is a theological crisis, some challenge to how we understand God. What we really have is power politics fueled by private money. It might be legal, but hardly seems, dare I say it, Christian.<br /><br />It seems the GAFCON primates would use the Light of the World as a torch.Point of Orderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11197275383322593717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33899400945165084202010-04-12T03:14:31.710-04:002010-04-12T03:14:31.710-04:00Sir, standing back, is not the Primates Meeting a ...Sir, standing back, is not the Primates Meeting a more representative group (of the AC) than Lambeth Palace staff and a legit group to speak for the AC? <br /><br />And if the Primates do not go along with ACC decisions, what value do they have? <br /><br />And if the ABC ignores GAFCON Primates, what Communion has he got left?Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68308006787081005852010-04-12T00:50:45.709-04:002010-04-12T00:50:45.709-04:00Note to Jim B: I am mightily comforted to know tha...Note to Jim B: I am mightily comforted to know that you are now the conservators of the church in Uganda. I can rest assured it will now be a more humane church. Thanks be to God!Lisa Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00881671380217888810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45354862197969734862010-04-12T00:49:18.029-04:002010-04-12T00:49:18.029-04:00Let me voice strong opposition of what Peter Carre...Let me voice strong opposition of what Peter Carrell has said, suggesting that the Archbishops/Primates should be the final arbiters of all things Anglican. <br /><br />To have 38 people speaking for millions and millions of Anglicans seems to me outrageous. <br /><br />My preference would be to have the Anglican Consultative Council in the fore. <br /><br />If not them, then at least it should be all the bishops of the Communion. Some of our TEC bishops would align with the majority in TEC, and some would not. But the same might be true of the bishops in Uganda and Nigeria and Canada.Lisa Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00881671380217888810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-65318912919129643542010-04-12T00:46:14.029-04:002010-04-12T00:46:14.029-04:00Thank you, Mark, for this careful explication of O...Thank you, Mark, for this careful explication of Orombi's tirade.Lisa Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00881671380217888810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31269298733175475712010-04-11T21:55:47.699-04:002010-04-11T21:55:47.699-04:00I see a different strategy. Whilst distracting us ...I see a different strategy. Whilst distracting us about who has authority over what, Bp Orombi has proposed disconnecting TEC and Canada from the AC, giving him the opportunity to replace Abp Rowan and to recast the AC in his own image. Am I oversimplifying?Pfalz prophethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10465623376468902861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31268930187419474692010-04-11T15:49:06.844-04:002010-04-11T15:49:06.844-04:00Let me see if we can get to the core. A Lambeth c...Let me see if we can get to the core. A Lambeth council <b>which has no authority to order the international polity</b> passes a resolution <i>expressing an opinion.</i> On that basis the Primate's get together now has "authority to act." Works for me.<br /><br />Last night my wife and I passed a resolution appointing me conservator of the Ugandan church. I am announcing that ABp Orombi is officially suspended. I expect him to so inform his staff and instruct them to report to me. <br /><br />What, you claim Sue-z and I had no authority? We had exactly the same authority Lambeth did and the Archbishop accepted that!<br /><br />;;sigh;;<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-42229459641984357772010-04-11T14:31:17.772-04:002010-04-11T14:31:17.772-04:00David: Sorry for the editing problems. I was usin...David: Sorry for the editing problems. I was using "Blogger in Draft and can't get it all to work right. I've done a bit of work on it and it looks better. There were some problems in parts of paragraphs being moved about. I think I got that fixed. I'll keep working at it.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61108089328749783642010-04-11T10:25:27.824-04:002010-04-11T10:25:27.824-04:00Orombi's attempt to shoe-horn Philip, "Bl...Orombi's attempt to shoe-horn Philip, "Blow Things Up", Ashey, Chief Operating Officer of the schismatic American Anglican Council, into the 2009 session of the JSC as his surrogate, was utterly off the wall. I'm still curious as to where, exactly, that little manoeuvre originated.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16870336722156595972010-04-11T07:43:51.996-04:002010-04-11T07:43:51.996-04:00I don’t think that the Archbishop of Canterbury ha...I don’t think that the Archbishop of Canterbury has the luxury of ignoring Orombi; the letter to too personal an attack for that. The only effective response would be a communication that puts Orombi in his place by pointing out the games that the Ugandan archbishop is playing. Of course, Rowan won’t do that. He will issue some polite, nuanced reply that will make him look even less effectual than he does now. (Yes, that <i>is</i> possible.)<br /><br />On another matter, I agree with Orombi that expressions of regret from TEC have been insincere. They have been attempts to placate the Communion while ignoring what was being asked of TEC. We should have said something like the following: “We're sorry you feel that way. We believe we are right, however, and, since you have no power over us, we will do what we think we must do. We believe that other Christian churches, including Anglican churches, will eventually come to the same understanding that we have. We pray that happens quickly. Thank you for your concern.”Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-79380680353584179342010-04-11T02:41:40.772-04:002010-04-11T02:41:40.772-04:00Father Mark, this is a good commentary to the Arch...Father Mark, this is a good commentary to the Archbishop's prattle, but it needs a lot of editing. In its present form it is very difficult to read. Especially for your readers where English is not our primary language.Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-54339521152687407062010-04-11T01:08:19.145-04:002010-04-11T01:08:19.145-04:00The issue at hand, which I will call in its most g...The issue at hand, which I will call in its most general sense, human sexuality-and-episcopacy [to avoid gritty debate over "active" etc :)], is fraught re Communion polity. You are concerned that the Primates should get voting powers for or agin it. Orombi is concerned with the 'Standing Committee'-plus-ACO staff being empowered to deal with it. Both fearful (so it seems) of a flawed process tackling a fraught issue with much potential for the 'wrong' decision.<br /><br />But, in fact, if we could set the issue at hand to one side, the Primates is a better group to deal with a range of Communion issues than you give credit for. On the basis that the Communion is a fellowship of member churches, and that on some matters at least, bringing the views of the member churches to the voting table is the simplest way to determine the mind of the Communion as a whole, who better to deliver the mind of their respective churches than the Primates?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.com