tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post7362315662226715387..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Time to fess up, Bishop Lawrence: You have lied to us.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85706712399710470002012-11-06T01:06:47.577-05:002012-11-06T01:06:47.577-05:00Mr. Mcgranor, I don't quite follow. Mr. Mcgranor, I don't quite follow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-37326987225876445512012-11-04T10:52:53.426-05:002012-11-04T10:52:53.426-05:00Turnip Ghost, it is truly the Catholics among you....Turnip Ghost, it is truly the Catholics among you. As well as the over-all effects of the past social upheaval.Mr. Mcgranorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12851136550476241757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27546440261202952872012-10-31T15:00:11.613-04:002012-10-31T15:00:11.613-04:00JCF-LeSigh!
You will continue to spend money on ... JCF-LeSigh!<br /> You will continue to spend money on lawsuits until you've made many lawyers rich. And you deserve each other. I am an atheist and I am happier every day that the St. Swithins-up-the-Cream-Bun-and-Jam has found its niche as the church for gay ex-fundies and ex-catholics, of whom there is a significant supply. Mincing around in chasubles, you will congratulate yourselves for not much but at least you'll all agree with each other. Enjoy.<br /> And the Fundiegelicals will continue to hive off into ever-shrinking variants of Same Old, Same Old. <br /> By the time 2040 rolls around, you'll be about 0.34% of the US population. Congratulations!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84493275617263530032012-10-30T18:09:25.761-04:002012-10-30T18:09:25.761-04:00From John 2007
How, JCF, is my description passive...From John 2007<br />How, JCF, is my description passive-aggressive. I have been laboring in TEC for twenty years without acrimony in parishes which I have tried to hold together, generally losing a significant number who disagree with TEC, and should I decided to leave because the cost is too high, or because the joy is too low, or because I think the error (in my judgment) is too sigbificant, in light of the many moves and changesd TEC has made, how is that passive agressive--other than, I suppose, the way in which any legitimate expression of "enough is enough" or "patience has worn out" is passive (we waited, we hoped) and then decisive. And how many times do those taking your position need to be reminded that the primates warned that schism would happen--viz., 'the sacramental fabric would be torn at its deepest level'--with vgr in 2003? I've stayed in tec, but I don't think those who left are the most profound schismatics.<br /><br />Last, you offer no substantive points. Are you saying tec has not made significant changes every step of the way since Lawrence was elected and that one of those was the setting up of a lawyer to represent tec in Lawrence's diocese as the rep of tec? Are you saying that a diocese can't dissent from a canon or appeal for a constitutional convention/resolution when a canon seems to go against the constitution? And what about selective prosecution, those Bishops and priests on the left side of the aisle who violated, and promoted the violation of the marriage canons, the creeds, and the practice of communion of the unbaptized? Why no discipline for them? Surely, you have something to say of substance. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-649205032395388912012-10-29T20:25:21.271-04:002012-10-29T20:25:21.271-04:00[Hope you're staying high&dry, away from S...[Hope you're staying high&dry, away from Sandy, {{{Mark}}}]<br /><br />Heh, you've obviously come up on the ACNA/GAFCON (targetting) radar again, Mark!<br /><br />To wit:<br /><br /><i>Should that happen that does not mean we lied about our intent and desire. It means things moved, parish history took a direction, that made the attempt to hold it together no longer possible, or wise, or consonant with what we took to be the will of God.</i><br /><br />What utter passive(aggressive) nonsense: "things moved". Spare me!<br /><br />If you want to leave---if that's your discernment (however discerned)--- then <i>Vaya Con Dios</i>. Use the feet God gave you, and walk out TEC's door. But ALL of the <b>Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina</b> BELONGS to TEC. Not you, not xLawrence.<br /><br />TEC, in turn, belongs to God. And Episcopalians in TEC have discerned it "consonant with what we took to be the will of God" that our resources for mission and ministry (that property xLawrence seems to determined to try and steal) will remain in GeneralConvention's hands. Scripture, Tradition and Reason will guide TEC's use of those resources. Not heretical schism!JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15823216893033164952012-10-27T12:24:45.307-04:002012-10-27T12:24:45.307-04:00What are we to make of the fact that several Bisho...What are we to make of the fact that several Bishops on the DBB represent dioceses that have no accession clause (and don't intend to have one)? One (+MA) has proudly and intentionally ignored the canons re: marriage? What does it mean to have a reference panel of 3 Bishops (PB, +Mathews, +Henderson) whose impartiality is obviously wanting? <br /><br />At what point does a neutral observer not simply conclude, 'rough justice of the wild west mining towns.'<br /><br />SCMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84495386670203656012012-10-26T22:47:48.977-04:002012-10-26T22:47:48.977-04:00Too bad Mark Harris continues in lying about the a...Too bad Mark Harris continues in lying about the actual events in the Diocese of South Carolina. The truth is what is published on the Diocese of South Carolina's website. You know the motto of the Anglican Communion is "The truth shall set you free". Yes, indeed. Free at last, Free at last, Thank God Almighty, we are free at last! Thanks be to GOD! <br /><br />AlexiOne daughter's perspectivehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02785443019606262860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-16900926223917692272012-10-23T12:02:23.194-04:002012-10-23T12:02:23.194-04:00"What is amazing is the lack of understanding...<i>"What is amazing is the lack of understanding, let alone charity, on this blog."</i> <br /><br />Heard of Stand Firm, anon?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-38658486609668342982012-10-23T11:59:58.299-04:002012-10-23T11:59:58.299-04:00I had the same problem with Episcopal Café yesterd...I had the same problem with Episcopal Café yesterday, Peg. The glitch seems to have been corrected and I can now post again.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68872458509593147662012-10-22T15:46:33.975-04:002012-10-22T15:46:33.975-04:00Of course the Diocese of SC was fed up and eager t...Of course the Diocese of SC was fed up and eager to either distance itself from TEC or disassociate or leave. Read Lawrence's categorization of the 4 types of parishes or 4 predominant stances that he experienced after visiting them all in the first year. Most of them wanted to leave, and saw it as probably inevitable but--and the but us crucial here---he said he wanted to try to remain in the denomination and the anglican communion. Just as many of us on the parochial level try to hold together conservatives and liberals but may, if one side gains dominance and creates havoc and division, may have to go one way or the other. Should that happen that does not mean we lied about our intent and desire. It means things moved, parish history took a direction, that made the attempt to hold it together no longer possible, or wise, or consonant with what we took to be the will of God. So, too, with Lawrence. What is amazing is the lack of understanding, let alone charity, on this blog. My hunch is that opponents of Lawrence have to play the conspiracy card and make the 'lie" charge to (I don't know) assuage the guilt for using a completely wrong (but expedient) canon to allege--laughably--abandonment instead of calling for a long-term process of negotiating and/or working through issues of diocesan autonomy over time. But scream, scapegoat, allege disingenuity, but don't ever think (as Geralyn Wolf+ at least once was admirably able to say circa 2006) 'maybe we've done the wrong thing or done it in the wrong way.' John 2007Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17074975112864695232012-10-22T13:53:02.142-04:002012-10-22T13:53:02.142-04:00The Lead has a piece by Jim Naughton asking, in es...The Lead has a piece by Jim Naughton asking, in essence, if he needs to get back on the job to follow South Carolina matters. I have tried multiple times to create an account, but keep being told that the code is wrong. Mark, if you could help me join the Lead, or else get the message to him that I for one badly want him to get back on the job, so to speak, I would be very very grateful. I think there is a lot more to this secret plan than simply taking the people of the diocese out. I think this may be the endgame of what Naughton described in Follow the Money. You don't need to publish this. My email address is ccarpentar@sc.rr.com <br />Thank you, and I appreciate your recent posts as well.<br />Margaret Carpenter in Florence, SCPeg in South Carolinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07886923838871937466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66844340091082713922012-10-22T09:23:43.082-04:002012-10-22T09:23:43.082-04:00Beryl,
If the remains of the Diocese of San Joaqu...<br />Beryl,<br /><br />If the remains of the Diocese of San Joaquin is indeed viable, will your Convention vote to reject the $785,000 being given to you to sustain you as an indepdenent diocese? I'll watch for that vote.<br />To the others I would commend the 2008 Faith Communities Survey undertaken by this Church. The purpose of which was to determine WHO this Church is and to set policy accordingly so as to avoid further deterioration. It indicates that only 1/3 of our churches are somewhat liberal or liberal. Yet, our policies are being enacted as though 2/3 or more would agree with the current revisionist trends of the past 4 General Conventions. The Church has split. Brian - if you haven't picked up on the stats of the Church, please read them. The Church is auguering itself into the ground in every trend. Some say that prophetic actions will have this fallout. I say that the larger community of the Church surveyed in 2008 WAS the voice of true prophets - and the Church's voice was ignored in deference to a microscopic, but loud viewpoint; all to our current trouble. <br />Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-3290810849525889862012-10-21T17:14:24.531-04:002012-10-21T17:14:24.531-04:00I think many feel +Lawrence lied in answering ques...I think many feel +Lawrence lied in answering questions during the consent process leading up to his consecration. I do not think he lied at that time. He gave disengenuous and unclear answers in such a way as to leave his options open. At any rate, what is happening now in SC is exactly what most people thought would happen. As I said elsewhere, it didn't take a rocket scientist to see this one coming a mile away.<br /><br />Now, the answers he gave to the questions posed at his consecration service are a different story. There are only two conclusions to draw from that. He either (A): broke the oath he gave when consecrated a Bishop, or (B): lied to begin with.David and Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09545394141617985139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-52664411417206343732012-10-21T01:06:44.380-04:002012-10-21T01:06:44.380-04:00from danielj to Allen
neopagen native dancing and...from danielj to Allen<br /><br />neopagen native dancing and smudge...I am afraid that you speak from ignorance and bias How many native Jesus followers do you know, and how much time have you spent with them?<br />When natives are at the drum, singing, dancing they are worshipping the one true God as surely as we do in liturgy. There is nothing neo or pagen about it Looking up to heaven, the Lakota literally say "Great Father, look, I am dancing under you" <br /><br />As for the natives at +KJS installment, those ndns were and are strong followers and witnesses of Jesus<br /><br />and smudge...cedar, sweetgrass, and sage are the historic incense native to this continent, just as franken ense/myr is in the middleast. Both are used in the same waydanieljhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465653001572499399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58167588421769947252012-10-21T01:04:52.430-04:002012-10-21T01:04:52.430-04:00from danielj to Allen
neopagen native dancing and...from danielj to Allen<br /><br />neopagen native dancing and smudge...I am afraid that you speak from ignorance and bias How many native Jesus followers do you know, and how much time have you spent with them?<br />When natives are at the drum, singing, dancing they are worshipping the one true God as surely as we do in liturgy. There is nothing neo or pagen about it Looking up to heaven, the Lakota literally say "Great Father, look, I am dancing under you" <br /><br />As for the natives at +KJS installment, those ndns were and are strong followers and witnesses of Jesus<br /><br />and smudge...cedar, sweetgrass, and sage are the historic incense native to this continent, just as franken ense/myr is in the middleast. Both are used in the same waydanieljhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465653001572499399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68360034644849103272012-10-20T22:32:24.278-04:002012-10-20T22:32:24.278-04:00And the $500,000+ that the diocese of SC has paid ...And the $500,000+ that the diocese of SC has paid in attorneys' fees since Lawrence's election, Allen?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69667055817841672872012-10-20T20:15:28.857-04:002012-10-20T20:15:28.857-04:00Allen, I'd be interested to know when this lon...Allen, I'd be interested to know when this long-predicted mass exodus is actually going to happen. Your side has been crying out about the impending desertion for the entire time I've been an Episcopalian -- since 1996. <br /><br />Your use of "liberals" as an epithet suggests to me that perhaps it is you that lives in a "minority" of hard right conservatives, a relatively small number of Episcopalians that has already left the church in the conservative Republican stronghold dioceses.<br /><br />I keep hearing about this massive growth of conservative Christians who are leaving the mainstream protestant denominations yet it doesn't ever show up in the national, scientific studies of church membership, self-identified religious beliefs, or anything else. <br /><br />Why are you guys hiding and not participating in the surveys? Where are you hiding? Why are you waiting and what are you waiting for? I wish you Godspeed if you choose to leave. I wish you peace if you choose to stay. I also wish you'd stop prevaricating and slandering and making false claims. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02056559168004517984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64133492571739447722012-10-20T20:04:32.407-04:002012-10-20T20:04:32.407-04:00Have you seen the diocese's newest statements,...Have you seen the diocese's newest statements, <a href="http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/005698.html" rel="nofollow">linked on <i>Thinking Anglicans</i></a>? Talk about <i>chutzpah</i>!Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33329067217659035382012-10-20T16:44:14.595-04:002012-10-20T16:44:14.595-04:00Allen,
Please don't forget the other shows...n...Allen,<br />Please don't forget the other shows...neo-pagan native dancing at the consecration in LA and the smudging at the consecration of KJS. Telling shows they wear...<br />Mark Harris,<br />The charge against you is not the emotive force behind the word "lie" it is the falsity of it. I am sorry you are old and angry and can give slack or charitable readings to so much else and yet cannot come close to truthfulness on this one<br />John 2007Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-82486356718538302972012-10-20T16:24:57.870-04:002012-10-20T16:24:57.870-04:00When people make comments about whether the Dioces...When people make comments about whether the Diocese of San Joaquin is "still viable," I would like to ask how they possibly know anything of which they speak. I am a loyal Episcopalian in the Diocese of San Joaquin who is so grateful for the Episcopal presence that is still very much alive here. Come to Convention on October 26 and 27 in Modesto, California and you will find that we are indeed, alive and well.<br /><br />After all we have endured here in the Diocese of San Joaquin, I am very saddened by the actions of Bishop Lawrence in South Carolina. However, I embrace the "theological,canonical, and pastoral" [honesty] of leaders in the Episcopal Church. <br /><br />And honesty is important. What is the honest path for those who cannot understand and appreciate the direction of our church? <br /><br />Beryl Simkins<br />Episcopal Diocese of San JoaquinBerylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15081838067060767405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-32238495334436688522012-10-20T13:37:56.873-04:002012-10-20T13:37:56.873-04:00Another growing diocese of the Church has been rev...Another growing diocese of the Church has been revulsed by the theological, canonical, and pastoral dishonesty of the minority of liberals leading the Church. Those from dioceses that lose members, have to close their cathedrals, and sow discord in this Church have absolutely nothing to teach the Diocese of South Carolina or the wider Church.<br />$785,000 just approved by the Executive Council to put on a show that the Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin is still viable will be increasingly duplicated as those in the pew decide to leave their revisionist leaders.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-44413510195844602742012-10-20T10:02:31.343-04:002012-10-20T10:02:31.343-04:00It would be helpful if people who HAVE signed off ...It would be helpful if people who HAVE signed off with a name would also use it instead of "anonymous" at the beginning, so that strings from specific people could be traced. <br /><br />I am aware that "lie" is a strong word.<br />Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78216071205604147312012-10-19T23:12:53.909-04:002012-10-19T23:12:53.909-04:00Your writing is not clear enough. What, exactly, ...Your writing is not clear enough. What, exactly, was the lie? Lie is a strong word. Is lack of disclosure a lie? Is delayed disclosure a lie? You used the word "lie" in your title and yet I cannot find the lie, per se. I can find accusations, and anger, and comments about delay and deception and secrecy, but I cannot find a lie at the moment.<br /><br />The two word verification I was given was "I Pyscho". Poor spelling aside, apparently God speaks through the "prove you're not a robot" box.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-37766201300801013682012-10-19T20:26:01.103-04:002012-10-19T20:26:01.103-04:00Well it's not like the Presiding Bishop hasn&#...Well it's not like the Presiding Bishop hasn't been working her own majic to get to this point. So glad to know that you are cleared to throw stones.<br /><br />Thomas AndrewThomas Andrewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1084984122394173482012-10-19T18:20:17.136-04:002012-10-19T18:20:17.136-04:00I am not in South Carolina and can't speak to ...I am not in South Carolina and can't speak to the particulars of what's going on there. It does appear, however, that there are people within the Episcopal Church who are using the disciplinary canons as a vehicle to purge voices that dissent from the majority view. The action against the seven bishops during the General Convention is, from where I sit, a prime example of this. I hear lip service from the majority on the desire for diversity, but hear praise for those holding conservative views only when the conservatives are leaving the Episcopal Church.<br /><br />Paul in DallasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com