tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post8007938701597499271..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Marriage isn't Adiaphora, but N.T.Wright (in this case) isMark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-60345343918632575792010-05-28T23:51:57.112-04:002010-05-28T23:51:57.112-04:00Not crazy ideas, Observer - irrelevant.Not crazy ideas, Observer - irrelevant.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84974684610762503682010-05-28T03:43:05.276-04:002010-05-28T03:43:05.276-04:00Hello nlnh,
I wonder if I might voice a little unf...Hello nlnh,<br />I wonder if I might voice a little unfairness when you say, "And, Peter, I also wonder whether you ever go to such bona fide hate sites as Virtue and wring your hands over the ugliness of it all, or do you save that for your visits to this place?"?<br /><br />The unfairness is this: when I visit this site I do not wring my hands over the ugliness of it all. Yes, I comment here. But personally I do not think I am wringing my hands. And I cannot recall anything ugly here, unlike certain other sites being named in this thread.<br /><br />Commenting here does seem to be an exercise in two way dialogue. That is a good thing, is it not!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89255067752456913812010-05-28T02:51:30.434-04:002010-05-28T02:51:30.434-04:00Funny how +Durham is written off as "the resp...Funny how +Durham is written off as "the respectable face" of something (implying a minority view?).....and the revisionist self-belief shines through......... But what is the Communion disagrees? Does it have a say? What if Wright is pretty mainstream? Crazy ideas?Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-34919857681164515082010-05-28T01:52:34.575-04:002010-05-28T01:52:34.575-04:00I commented on Wright's (IMO, inane at BEST) p...I commented on Wright's (IMO, <i>inane</i> at BEST) piece over at Thinking Anglicans.<br /><br />I don't have the stomach to do so again.JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67278399465051283432010-05-27T23:50:55.645-04:002010-05-27T23:50:55.645-04:00The diversity isn't the cause of the division,...The diversity isn't the cause of the division, but the insistence that diversity is wrong. The chasm was already there - part of the diversity - and the bridge across it was burned . . . by so-called "conservatives."<br /><br />I also believe Wright is no fool, but neither is he a great thinker. A theologian speaks very little and writes less - perhaps dogmatician or church lawyer would be an appropriate term for Wright. It doesn't take especial brilliance to simply restate arguments that have been increasingly unconvincing for over a century.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-84548567490522567802010-05-27T17:27:25.773-04:002010-05-27T17:27:25.773-04:00The only remarkable thing about this speech is tha...The only remarkable thing about this speech is that Wright actually managed visited his diocese long enough to deliver it.<br /><br />And, Peter, I also wonder whether you ever go to such bona fide hate sites as Virtue and wring your hands over the ugliness of it all, or do you save that for your visits to this place?nlnhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68752823445806870772010-05-27T17:10:36.309-04:002010-05-27T17:10:36.309-04:00Hello Commenters,
I am heartened that Mark is com...Hello Commenters,<br /><br />I am heartened that Mark is committed to bridging the chasm (if possible ... it may not be possible). Thank you for kind words.<br /><br />My observation about conservatives being looked upon as fools etc is an observation re quite a lot of sweeping judgments made across the internet. But that works both ways, as Priscilla points out. I agree: there is terrible stuff on SF etc. One reason why I like engaging here is that I know Mark is not only a voice worth listening to, he is also a voice at the 'top' of TEC. I do not think that can be said of the staffers as SF!!<br /><br />And, Lionel, yes, conservatives may be investing too much in the Communion. Diversity is not a bad thing in itself. But there is a question whether it is a good thing when it results in division!Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-61171378830437556842010-05-27T16:25:55.285-04:002010-05-27T16:25:55.285-04:00What an interesting post and comments. I wonder i...What an interesting post and comments. I wonder if the words quoted from Bp. Wright's address were in the nature of a trial balloon for the Archbisihop of Canterbury's pastoral letter. Perhaps not, though, as his conclusion sounds rather definite. But could it be that we have, at the very least, a hint of what is to come in the pastoral letter from Canterbury? <br /><br />I would not wish to anticipate the contents of the ABC's pastoral letter, but, in the light of past experience, my guess (and I speak only for myself) is that the letter may not be good news for the Episcopal Church.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-37455740835768440922010-05-27T08:17:27.695-04:002010-05-27T08:17:27.695-04:00Surely Wright is not a fool. Disingenuous polemici...Surely Wright is not a fool. Disingenuous polemicist maybe.<br /><br />I think Mark’s post is right on. If Wright is to be taken seriously, however, one has to say that the Anglican Communion is not the Church Universal. How can the Anglican Communion decide important (or even unimportant) issues of morality? Surely the Roman Catholics are part of the Church. Also the Orthodox. Even the Baptists, for God’s sake. Don’t we all have to agree?<br /><br />Not only is this not going to happen, but it is a good thing that this is not going to happen. To begin with, Wright ignores the way change happens in human society. Look at the issue of civil rights in the U.S. Congress did not have a change of heart, pass a law, and make everything right. (Wright?). Instead, change first happened on the ground—not only protesting, but actual lawbreaking. Without it, change might never have come about.<br /><br />But back to the Anglican Communion, which has been invested by conservatives with rather more significance than it deserves. Either there is reason to have multiple Christian churches in the world or there isn’t. Considering the origin of Anglicanism, we seem to believe that there is. Anglicanism has never claimed to be the One True Church, as well it should not. If this is the case, however, why is the Anglican Communion any more holy, empowered, or whatever, than any other church or any of its members? Why is it always assumed that diversity is bad? The diversity among Christian churches allows Christ’s Church to speak to people of different cultures and different psychological makeups. If, for example, the only church in the world was that off the Southern Baptists, I would be a heathen.<br /><br />N.T. Wright is the respectable face of a despicable movement.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-82845884659492482222010-05-27T07:15:49.274-04:002010-05-27T07:15:49.274-04:00Mark, as always, is Christ-like and pastoral in hi...Mark, as always, is Christ-like and pastoral in his response to Peter Carrell. I would like to ask Mr. Carrell this: what is your admonishment to those on “your side” of this debate? <br /><br />Yes, we poke fun and dismiss our opponents on more than a few occasions. But isn’t this a 2-way street? What about the filth that is posted regularly on SFIF, T19, and other “conservative” blogs? Do THEY want the chasm bridged? Have you gone there and urged them to tone down their rhetoric in the spirit of bridging the chasm and if so what was the reaction you received? <br /><br />It seems that any response made by “our side” is immediately seen as an attack while anything said by the conservatives is immediately taken to be honest and heartfelt and dominant by virtue of majority rule no matter how negative, cruel, or debasing their words. <br /><br />I found it interesting too that no one has addressed the good bishops near-racist offhand comment about the “problems” with the LA consecration. I can guess that he doesn’t approve at all of the multicultural nature of the service which reflects the diversity of that diocese. The fact that this is seen as problematic is problematic to me in and of itself. <br /><br />I fill follow Mark’s lead here and offer it all in prayer.Priscilla Cardinalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75727548923174356132010-05-27T06:45:57.745-04:002010-05-27T06:45:57.745-04:00Peter Carrell....I do not ascribe to Wright or Ang...Peter Carrell....I do not ascribe to Wright or Anglicans of his sort status as fools, etc, and it certainly would not change anything. I do poke fun occasionally. (I will receive my reward I am sure.) <br /><br />I do ( I believe) understand the argument and years ago when the issue of subsidiarity was raised in the context of the Windsor Report I spoke out against it. Subsidiarity and the "level" on which adiaphora status is determined are all linked together. Big issues require higher level discussion, determining if something is a big issue is a big issue, etc. <br /><br />Its early here on the East Coast of America and perhaps I am feeling a bit confessional, but perhaps part of my reaction is knowing just how slow and careful and finally unjust was the process of determining that people of color were not different in kind from white anglo-saxon protestants. It was a big deal and we were advised to go slow - in the church and elsewhere - and the blowback is that many of us are forever marked by racism as a result either as a contributor or as someone subject to racism in action. The church did not fair well in that prolonged struggle and frankly has not overcome even yet. In the years leading up to the turn from racism we would not have been well served by Anglicans elsewhere who were more or less in parallel situations of colonial racism. <br /><br />As I suggest at the close of this blog I think the real changes do not happen up and out there, they happen in the practice of folk who step out and stand on a local incarnational level. <br /><br />Of course you are right in that all the other efforts have their important place. That is why I think the Anglican Communion is an important community of folk and I have served the Anglican Communion's efforts in may ways over the years. I want to see it prosper and work. It is a place to bring our concerns and proposals for change, but it is not the place where those changes will take place or be played out.<br /><br />You ask at the last, "Do you want the chasm to be bridged?" I do, very much so. And, I might add I think you ar likely to be one of those bridge builders long after I have moved on to the rocker on the front porch. I appreciate your writing and comments more than you can know and see you as a rising star voice in the world of blogs and beyond. <br /><br />I am here ready and eager for the task, and I know you are.<br /><br />Some things are only dealt with by prayer and I suspect this is one.<br /><br />Regards.Mark Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-23056712357914984962010-05-27T04:49:46.996-04:002010-05-27T04:49:46.996-04:00Discovering the difference or indifference of some...Discovering the difference or indifference of something may be straightforward or it may be not; or it may be straightforward to some but not to others; or ... well, one can keep going with quite a few observations about adiaphora, as you do Mark!<br /><br />I think you are missing the point: what +Wright says is unexceptional to many Anglicans around the world who 'get' the point he is making, agree with it, and are eager to see the Instruments of Unity signal their agreement.<br /><br />Yes, what +Wright says can be questioned (your post), poked fun at (comments here), and dismissed. But doing that highlights the chasm in the Communion between those who find no problem with what he says and those who do.<br /><br />Ascribing to Wrightian Anglicans (if I may so call conservatives!) some kind of status as fools, know nothings, or simply stupid people, or even the slightly kinder 'mediocre' may help the non-Wrightians feel better, but I suggest that doing so will change little. <br /><br />If the chasm is to be bridged then a different tone to your criticism of bishops such as +Wright could help. A little more appreciation of the importance of traditional Christian teaching on marriage?<br /><br />But if the chasm is not to be bridged, well, none of this really matters: what Wright thinks, what you think, what any commenter here, including me thinks. <br /><br />Do you want the chasm to be bridged?Peter Carrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09535218286799156659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-66016508789122512752010-05-27T02:49:19.372-04:002010-05-27T02:49:19.372-04:00Sir, surely +Durham is not being unreasonable in h...Sir, surely +Durham is not being unreasonable in his point, if I may re-phrasse, that if the AC consistently says it will not accept X, then one or two provinces unilaterally going ahead with X does not make X good, holy or acceptable.....even in the AC. <br /><br />Stress comes from the desire of some to both go against "the mind of the Communion" but also to stay in it.....stress for all sides, sadlyObservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-21140311238577143782010-05-27T00:45:12.509-04:002010-05-27T00:45:12.509-04:00Somebody's book sales must be sliding!
Maybe ...Somebody's book sales must be sliding!<br /><br />Maybe he's getting in a last, vicious swipe with a hind claw before settling into an academic environment in which his mediocrity will become readily apparent.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-18433480083166421762010-05-27T00:29:13.189-04:002010-05-27T00:29:13.189-04:00Remember when writing with your left hand was cons...Remember when writing with your left hand was considered antisocial at best -- "He's just showing off" "She's trying to be different." Turns out Lefties are wired that way. How one writes is a matter of indifference -- unless control freaks make an issue of it.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.com