tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post8475640849859097187..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: On this business of accession to the General Convention.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75638803499032424672011-10-16T14:17:03.165-04:002011-10-16T14:17:03.165-04:00To continue:
So, e.g., the Episcopal Diocese of D...To continue:<br /><br />So, e.g., the Episcopal Diocese of Dallas has a canon forbidding solemnization of Christian marriage except as indicated in the BCP. That is the 'teaching of the Diocese.'<br /><br />What happens when couple X in parish X insist on the rite? Yet there the canon is.<br /><br />How is this to be resolved? <br /><br />BTW, I gather that the SCLM pressed for the language of marriage rather than blessing and even moderate bishops pushed back. Why? Because the BCP regulates the teaching of the church; it is a constitutional document.<br /><br />So dioceses which at present allow the use of 'marriage' rites (adapted from the BCP), because the culture has civil marriage; and dioceses which allow priests to practice what is called 'open communion' are technically in breach of the Constitution of the Church, and so, are required to be brought before the Intake Officer a la Title IV process.<br /><br />This is a long way away from NH and entente cordiale.<br /><br />To speak of kindly forebearance runs up against the new canonical reality and the constitutionality of our BCP. Soon to be adapted...<br /><br />SamSamuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-77934268407152028172011-10-16T14:07:43.732-04:002011-10-16T14:07:43.732-04:00Rabbit--your misperceptions and occlusions are you...Rabbit--your misperceptions and occlusions are your own. I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that. I don't recall hearing anything further from the person you refer to.<br /><br />If you are saying you don't know anything about the UMC, that sounds like a solid conclusion to make. <br /><br />Fr Weir<br /><br />I accept that there was a happy compromise over 'liberalism' and 'conservatism' in NH.<br /><br />Sadly, that will not be possible and for the reasons indicated above. It won't play out that way, as trueanglican's response shows. This is about providing rites, and about a Bishop in a diocese which does not receive such teaching (should it appear, in the first instance,as suggested just now by SCLM, in some experimental form en route to Occasional Service en route to BCP). <br /><br />What will happen to said Bishop? The answer is, he will not be allowed to hold such a view. Complaints will be made. Title IV will need to discipline him/her.<br /><br />What alternative is there? Allow the diocese to reject the conclusion of GenConv and others? <br /><br />SamuelSamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-38669348861614082662011-10-16T14:07:09.836-04:002011-10-16T14:07:09.836-04:00Another thought or two about membership loss:
me...Another thought or two about membership loss: <br /><br />membership loss or gain may have nothing to do with faithfulness to Christ;<br /><br />changing my convictions on same-sexuality in order to keep or gain members is certainly not faithfulness.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-79503370141877832492011-10-16T13:34:34.592-04:002011-10-16T13:34:34.592-04:00The parish I served at the time of the consecratio...The parish I served at the time of the consecration in NH lost some members who felt that they could not in conscience belong to TEC. We also gained members who were looking for a church that welcomed LGBT folks, even though they were heterosexual. We also welcomed new members who were in same-sex marriages. One positive thing was that those who left could be part of a new congregation where they weren't always bothered by how liberal the rector was. The rector of the Anglican chapel they organized and I became friends, aware of our disagreements, but sharing a commitment to preaching the Gospel.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41203090479122536422011-10-16T11:20:45.701-04:002011-10-16T11:20:45.701-04:00"It is a well-known fact" among whom Sam...<i>"It is a well-known fact"</i> among whom Sam, apart than you and a handful of like-minded buddies? Same old, Same old we got ten days back when you smeared Susan W with the baseless <i>"the responses from Susan are without any foundation"</i>. A claim which. apropos of nothing, you failed to defend when you were called upon it. But where's the surprise?Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85532877076055085042011-10-16T08:11:33.438-04:002011-10-16T08:11:33.438-04:00It is a well-known fact that the thing that makes ...It is a well-known fact that the thing that makes UMC different tham TEC is that its world-wide members--with big numbers in the GS--have a vote in their major assemblies. It is also a well-known fact that American liberals in the UMC resent this and have sought to bring it to an end. And it is finally a well-known fact that the UMC is not hemorraging members in the manner of TEC.<br /><br /><br />One of the problems of being 1/4 the size of a body like UMC (we leave aside the RCC or SBC), is that at some point the shriking is exponential, and the tiny size is hard to maintain without something like a merger.<br /><br />SamuelSamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1118276781609702112011-10-15T21:42:40.845-04:002011-10-15T21:42:40.845-04:00The churches are declining (all of them) because a...The churches are declining (all of them) because as far as most people are concerned, especially younger people, the Church is just another cop, another collection agency for the banks, another enforcer the established status quo on behalf of the privileged.<br /><br />I notice that Jesus reserved his worst scorn for the religious establishment of His day, and for those who observed the religious laws and regulations with the most zeal.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31497021957345945372011-10-15T20:07:07.766-04:002011-10-15T20:07:07.766-04:00Surely you jest, Sal.
The United Methodist Churc...Surely you jest, Sal. <br /><br />The United Methodist Church "saved by it's GS members"? Somebody had better rush to inform the Institute on Religon and Democracy if this is true. They can route some of the funds they are spending in their attempts to destroy the UMC into their efforts to help destroy TEC and the PCUSA.<br /><br />If you read IRD magazines and pamphlets geared toward the United Methodists, you would think that their demonination is on the verge of becoming completely apostate.<br /><br />Besides, their numbers are not up, either.David and Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09545394141617985139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-69840778030913621192011-10-15T17:37:45.782-04:002011-10-15T17:37:45.782-04:00Christopher--you are joking, right?
There is a se...Christopher--you are joking, right?<br /><br />There is a serious question about what kind of church TEC will need now to become to survive as an 'episcopal' church.<br /><br />Yes, PCUSA is struggling. They look like us, theologically.<br /><br />LCMS not viable? Their seminaries are packed with young students. UMC? It is saved in part because of its inclusion of GS voting members. It is by no means under threat.<br /><br />Not building numbers but proclaiming Christ? What an odd distinction. To the degree that Christ is being proclaimed (read Acts) the Gospel convicts, converts and -- praise God -- reaches out in growth. <br /><br />Yours is a self-justifying decline dressed up as something TEC special. TEC will go the way of the UCC, UU, PCUSA, and indeed, why are there different denominations here at all? I mean that seriously. <br /><br />SalSalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-7531119063290246272011-10-15T17:30:19.169-04:002011-10-15T17:30:19.169-04:00Lionel Deimel said:
"The charge that the chu...Lionel Deimel said:<br /><br />"The charge that the church is losing members because it is liberal has to be supported by actual facts, presumably by polling those who have left (and not just those who have left to go to ACNA)."<br /><br />From the Episcopal Church's own report: http://www.dfms.org/documents/FACTs_on_Episcopal_Church_Growth%281%29.pdf<br /><br />"The most frequent source of conflict mentioned, however, was “actions of General Convention 2003 regarding the Bishop of New <br />Hampshire.” Overall,<b>78% of Episcopal congregations reported experiencing some conflict over this issue, with almost half (47%) of all congregations reporting that they had moderately serious or very serious conflict.</b>"<br /><br />There you go. Polling and facts.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285325003136746333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88307962612249936672011-10-15T17:24:23.420-04:002011-10-15T17:24:23.420-04:00Folks, if you're not pentecostal, or Mormon, o...Folks, if you're not pentecostal, or Mormon, or buoyed by immigrants, legal or otherwise, your numbers are down. This includes LCMS, SBC, UMC, PCUSA, and any number of others, according other NCC Yearbookfor 2011. Returning TEC numbers to their former levels is not the goal--the goal is proclaiming Christ.Christopher (P.)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-78142292034224918772011-10-15T16:56:05.865-04:002011-10-15T16:56:05.865-04:00Most people would reflexively say that Pittsburgh ...Most people would reflexively say that Pittsburgh PA is more conservative that Charleston SC.<br /><br />Shows how myopic you are.<br /><br />Yes, please do tell us by what means you will return TEC to its former numbers. <br /><br />SalSalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-33382899727395676452011-10-15T16:47:52.175-04:002011-10-15T16:47:52.175-04:00Samuel,
I didn’t say that all is well with The Ep...Samuel,<br /><br />I didn’t say that all is well with The Episcopal Church. If we identify the wrong cause of decline, however, we will prescribe the wrong plan to counteract it.<br /><br />As for South Carolina, it is an extremely conservative and independent place. Not by accident did the Civil War—perhaps known to you as the War of Northern Aggression—begin in South Carolina. Don’t expect what “works” in South Carolina to work in, say, Newark. South Carolina is not a typical state.<br /><br />This is probably my last comment for today. I am attending a celebration of the 175th anniversary of my middle-of-the-road Episcopal church this evening.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-30293081295886371032011-10-15T16:30:55.648-04:002011-10-15T16:30:55.648-04:00Mr Deimel
The Executive Council has spoken of 35 ...Mr Deimel<br /><br />The Executive Council has spoken of 35 dioceses not being viable. CDSP has just said it cannot replace 2 faculty members; Seabury-Western closed last year; GTS is trying to survive. 815 Second Avenue is being mortgaged. Average age of clergy is 57. The prediction of church closings is sobering, made by 815's own experts. <br /><br />The Southern Baptist Church is not on any analogy to this, not remotely.<br /><br />But perhaps the question is: how, Mr Deimel, how can a church of 1M survive? What will it do to balance the budget? Get rid of the office of PB (47% of budget goes to her office)? Merge dioceses and close some? <br /><br />You fool yourself by speaking of cultural factors to explain this. The Diocese of SC lives in the culture. It isn't facing anything like this decline.<br /><br />SamuelSamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-36753184107656566522011-10-15T16:13:43.828-04:002011-10-15T16:13:43.828-04:00Joe,
It is tiresome to hear the repeated mantra t...Joe,<br /><br />It is tiresome to hear the repeated mantra that The Episcopal Church is losing members because it has abandoned “orthodoxy.” Largely, such charges illustrate the logical fallacy <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc" rel="nofollow"><i>post hoc ergo propter hoc</i></a> (after the fact, therefore because of it). The charge that the church is losing members because it is liberal has to be supported by actual <i>facts</i>, presumably by polling those who have left (and not just those who have left to go to ACNA).<br /><br />The Episcopal Church is not the only church losing members. Surely, the <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-06-12-baptisms_11_ST_N.htm" rel="nofollow">Southern Baptists</a> are not loosing members because they are too liberal. There must be other reasons.<br /><br />Demographics and decreasing faith in religion generally can surely explain part of the decline. In any case, since I haven’t done the required research, I cannot explain the membership decline in The Episcopal Church. I would bet that part of the decline is due to the perception that Episcopal churches are war zones. Because of militant conservatives, of course, they are to some degree.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58069067007911167692011-10-15T16:12:16.691-04:002011-10-15T16:12:16.691-04:00Thank you for underscoring the point, trueanglican...Thank you for underscoring the point, trueanglican. You have put paid to Fr Weir's idea that all will be well and everyone will say it's up to your conscience.<br /><br />No, when Bishop X makes this declaration, according to your logic, he is to be ignored. But this will not happen. Said priest would be disciplined. It would be required according to diocesan canon. <br /><br />(Your 2nd paragraph is silly irrelevance).<br /><br />And at that point we would have a conflict, not a cordial entente. Some would argue the Bishop does not have that authority, according to wider political winds in TEC; and others would say the opposite.<br /><br />And that is why there needs to be the concession that SS marriage will have to be enforced across the board. By compulsion. That is the burden of your comment.<br /><br />SamuelSamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15456874070113048512011-10-15T15:51:34.639-04:002011-10-15T15:51:34.639-04:00William R. MacKaye said:
"Sam, Allen, Farmer...William R. MacKaye said:<br /><br />"Sam, Allen, Farmer, and their supporters seem not to understand that the mind of the church is changing."<br /><br />Not according to the latest attendance numbers.<br /><br />The faithful are LEAVING the Episcopal Church and it is just further declining into apostasy.<br /><br />So what was the fringe is now becoming the norm.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285325003136746333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-67027257358156760682011-10-15T13:23:34.351-04:002011-10-15T13:23:34.351-04:00I have found Hofstadter's Paranoid Style in Am...I have found Hofstadter's <a href="http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/the_paranoid_style.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Paranoid Style in American Politics</i></a> invaluable to understanding the "reasserter" mind-set.Lapinbizarrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07686990585795363001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85543922794461305852011-10-15T13:14:00.416-04:002011-10-15T13:14:00.416-04:00Sam, Allen, Farmer, and their supporters seem not ...Sam, Allen, Farmer, and their supporters seem not to understand that the mind of the church is changing. Bishop Orthodox'a command that no SS marriages be performed in his (and I use the pronoun deliberately) diocese may succeed for a time. Sooner or later, though, a clergy person under his authority will defy him because the priest has come to believe it's the right thing to do and arises from a right reading of the Bible. Bishop Orthodox is an heir of King Canute commanding the tide not to rise. <br /><br />It wasn't so very long ago that Anglican bishops were forbidding the wearing of chasubles and banning candles on retables. See where that got them. Or even more recently, look at the result of Paul VI's renewal of the ban on practicing contraception. Humane vitae didn't affect the practice of Roman Catholic lay people at all. It just served to undermine the authority of the papacy.<br /><br />Meantime, as I understand it, the Diocese of South Carolina continues to block efforts by lay people to organize Episcopal congregations that don't conform to the diocesan standards of "orthodoxy." What a shame! <br /><br />William R. MacKayetrueanglicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15024301226058203209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-79915094457950306592011-10-15T11:05:17.131-04:002011-10-15T11:05:17.131-04:00Christopher, Thanks.
So what happens when a Bisho...Christopher, Thanks.<br /><br />So what happens when a Bishop rules that no SS marriage can take place, should said rites be OK'd by Gen Conv?<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />SamuelSamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63410011078293925052011-10-15T10:56:06.510-04:002011-10-15T10:56:06.510-04:00A few things from the Canons, Prayer Book, and BOS...A few things from the Canons, Prayer Book, and BOS.<br /><br />Canon I.17.6. Of regulations respecting the laity:<br /><br />A person to whom the Sacraments of the Church shall have been refused, … may appeal to the Bishop . . . . No Member of the Clergy of this Church shall be required to admit to the Sacraments a person so refused . . . without the written direction of the Bishop . . . . [Edited, but I trust without change of meaning.]<br /><br />Canon I.18.4. Of the solemnization of Holy Matrimony.<br /><br />It shall be within the discretion of any Member of the Clergy of this Church to decline to solemnize any marriage.<br /><br />Book of Occasional Services, Preface (1994 edition, the only one I have!)<br /><br />All of the material in this book is optional. None of it is required . . . .<br /><br />Book of Common Prayer, catechism:<br /><br />Other sacramental rites include . . . holy matrimony. . . . Although [such sacramental rites] are means of grace, they are not necessary for all persons in get same way that Baptism and the Eucharist are. <br /><br /><br />My point: if such regulations are in place for Sacraments, and even for recognized sacramental rites such as Holy Matrimony, then how much more discretion exists for the Bishop—in the role as overseer of diocesan clergy and worship—in such matters as Blessings.Christopher (P.)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-75569938428948865452011-10-15T08:29:03.036-04:002011-10-15T08:29:03.036-04:00Allen
You are correct about the place and constit...Allen<br /><br />You are correct about the place and constitutionality of the BCP. <br /><br />Morever, if a Bishop in Diocese X were to be forced to rule that a SS marriage rite (that was in the smorgasbord book) was not to be used in a diocese, <br /><br />a) what would his/her fate be?<br />b) what kind of new polity would this bespeak (Bishop now tells us how the BCP is binding and how not)<br /><br />The point is that an anodyne account of how it will all be up to individual Priests using their discretion is full-on, pie-in-the-sky hallucination. <br /><br />It won't play out that way.<br /><br />If the SS marriage rite is in a Book of Alternative Services (this will be one kind of compromise, though it is understood to have been resisted strongly at a HOB discussion), and again, Bishop X rules that under no conditions is said rite to be undertaken, what will happen?<br /><br />It will not be a matter for priestly discretion. This is a class action development.<br /><br />What will happen with Bishop X in Diocese X?<br /><br />SamSamuelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-38523148309813222342011-10-15T07:59:23.782-04:002011-10-15T07:59:23.782-04:00Lionel Deimel said:
"South Carolina ceased t...Lionel Deimel said:<br /><br />"South Carolina ceased to be an autonomous entity when it joined The Episcopal Church."<br /><br />Not so.<br /><br />In the 18th century, associations were not legally recognized entities.<br /><br />The founders of TEC organized it as an association, not a corporation.<br /><br />Thus, SC retained its legal autonomous identity.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285325003136746333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-4098502913529345682011-10-14T21:50:54.016-04:002011-10-14T21:50:54.016-04:00...and Thomas+
Not having Prayer Books in the han......and Thomas+<br /><br />Not having Prayer Books in the hands of every worshiper? That is totally contrary to a received faith, and has a thin (almost nil) approval from our Episcopal history. It makes the leaders in charge of tradition and it makes the congregation mere sheep. Kind of like today's "new churches" that flash "all you need" on an overhead projecter screen to repeat. There was a reason that bygone Episcopalians went to such efforts to have the Prayer Book widely distributed: to teach and make a Church that strengthened the laity rather than making them dependent upon a lone leader...and his/her prerogatives....and abuses.<br />I would like to suggest that many of our current troubles are precisely because people do not know the Prayer Book and have been led into innovations that have no justification in a Church that claims to be "catholic" in its design and dependency.Allennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-85131523399946446722011-10-14T21:11:29.484-04:002011-10-14T21:11:29.484-04:00Thomas+,
Your theory that the Prayer Book is a bu...Thomas+,<br /><br />Your theory that the Prayer Book is a buffet of pick/choose, ignore/endorse isn't quite so, or have you forgotten Thew Forester's utter rejection as a bishop for (among other things) changing the Prayer Book? Even the more liberal dioceses didn't go so far as to endorse him for deigning to change the Creed, etc. For THAT piece of clarity I am grateful. As Episcopalians, our doctrine and practice is summed in the Prayer Book. Our bishop, in fact, has said, in essence, that it doesn't matter what goes on, that we are required to believe only what is taught in the print of the Prayer Book. So, perhaps you would not choose A,B,or C from the Prayer Book. But if it is there....it is received doctrine...and acceptance is expected on that level. That's why there is a problem. It's not about Elizabethan or Modern English. It's about this Church's leadership being innovators who are teaching doctrine that has never been received by the Church catholic in its 2,000+ year history.Allennoreply@blogger.com