tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post8553314638863781761..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Simon surmises that Bread and Water makes for Eucharist, Water and Wine being conjoined as signs.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-41525180029625364862010-08-07T21:58:47.936-04:002010-08-07T21:58:47.936-04:00Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurred to me th...Not to beat a dead horse, but it occurred to me this afternoon as I drove back from VT that there is a good reason why water might be the worst choice for the Eucharist: it's natural.<br /><br />Bread and wine aren't natural; God didn't make them directly, but furnishes the raw materials and people make them. As the prayers at the offertory in the RC mass (which we also say at that point in my parish), the bread is what "earth has given and human hands have made," while the wine is " fruit of the vine and work of human hands." They carry connotations of human cooperation with God. In a way they represent our lives, offered to God: we give them to God and ask that he will bless them, change them, and give them back to us.*<br /><br />Of course, by this reasoning almost anything besides plain water (and probably milk) - blackberry wine, tea, or Mr. Pibb - would be a better choice. It's not a reason to insist on wine.<br /><br />*I wish I remembered where I had heard it put this way before; it's not original with me.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17233224519325647152010-08-05T10:11:42.195-04:002010-08-05T10:11:42.195-04:00I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't think y...I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't think you should have celebrated Mass under the circumstances. I think it's a sign of a certain "over-eucharistization" of the Church when there's the perceived need to provide it even in the absence of the necessary elements under non-emergency circumstances. This need to have the Eucharist for every Church gathering, as opposed to the Office, is what strikes me as "magical" thinking, not the Catholic regard for proper matter. <br /><br />On the other hand, the Anglican position on the elements seems somewhat forgiving. See http://www.anglicancommunion.org/resources/liturgy/docs/ialcreport.cfm . And there's the historical example of the water eucharists that others have mentioned. It's not the end of the world.The Religious Pícarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03620636294081499041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-17096374536068952612010-07-31T22:17:39.714-04:002010-07-31T22:17:39.714-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Henry Atkinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58920706081072890022010-07-30T16:23:33.645-04:002010-07-30T16:23:33.645-04:00Mark,
I used to think Gallo Port was the only stan...Mark,<br />I used to think Gallo Port was the only standard wine acceptable for the Eucharist. This goes back about 40 years!Thank God for your ministry to these young people. This experience will most certainly be a transforming event for them. I know that from a similar experience many years ago as a teenager.<br />Shame on eponym's shock. Get a life. Jesus was about life, not rigid ecclesiastical rules. <br /><br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-28191861156706184642010-07-30T15:31:52.506-04:002010-07-30T15:31:52.506-04:00I once started a weekly Eucharist in a locked ward...I once started a weekly Eucharist in a locked ward of a local community mental health center. I could not use wine. I could not bring any "elements" into the center. I was promised a slice of bread and grape juice. My bishop approved.<br /><br />My first week there, the staff forgot. They scrambled. We got saltine crackers and grapefruit juice.<br /><br />Jesus was there. And He was very, very happy.Elizabeth Kaetonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787552280232329081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83600195815956956932010-07-30T14:35:46.017-04:002010-07-30T14:35:46.017-04:00"They're out of wine." "It'..."They're out of wine." "It's not my time." "Do as he say." "Fill those jars with water. Now draw some out and give it to the steward." Ah yes...Lois Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13708877817422097051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-74862282577253739882010-07-30T14:10:13.670-04:002010-07-30T14:10:13.670-04:00There is also precedent for the use of bread and w...There is also precedent for the use of bread and water within more mainstream Christianity in the patristic era. For example, the first detailed account of the Mass that we have -- from St. Justin Martyr's First Apology -- mentions that the eucharist consisted of bread, a cup of water, and a cup of wine mixed with water. While wine was definitely a part of the eucharist that St. Justin was familiar with, at least according to his retelling, there was a distinct cup of water that was part of the ceremony as well.Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-64220765414939133612010-07-30T12:30:58.523-04:002010-07-30T12:30:58.523-04:00There are ancient precedents for Bread and Water E...There are ancient precedents for Bread and Water Eucharists, particularly among Encratite and Gnostic circles, as for instance in the Acts of Thomas, where the Eucharist is regularly celebrated by the apostle in that manner. I don't know whether that's a good thing or not, but in your case, the motive for using water was not Encratite or Gnostic abhorrence of "matter" but rather a reverent substitution because of unavoidable lack of wine. Though a liturgical traditionalist, I find myself not particularly upset under the circumstances, even if I wouldn't want such substitution to happen except under extraordinary conditions. Should you have rather abstained entirely from Eucharist and held a service of Morning Prayer or a Liturgy of the Word only? Perhaps. That too would have been an instructive and holy response in the situation. I have no doubt God will accept and bless however we seek to approach and worship God, with whatever poor resources we have to offer, when we do it with humble and contrite hearts.The Rev. James Lodwickhttp://jaimenick@aol.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-14163338892472015292010-07-30T11:56:12.487-04:002010-07-30T11:56:12.487-04:00Substituting water for wine was also common practi...Substituting water for wine was also common practise in Chinese Christian communities where wine, particularly grape-derived wine, was very hard to come by. <br /><br />It's certainly not the ideal, but it's better than nothing in an emergency.toujoursdanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08106158181662408311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-12512934430946010852010-07-30T11:01:21.281-04:002010-07-30T11:01:21.281-04:00I understand that some small Christian congregatio...I understand that some small Christian congregations in Muslim countries where wine is prohibited and inaccessible must make similar improvisations.<br /><br />In all things Christ is glorified and present where ever He is invited.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25894821690193151672010-07-30T00:17:23.684-04:002010-07-30T00:17:23.684-04:00Mark, while I would agree with Simon rather than e...Mark, while I would agree with Simon rather than eponym, what grabbed me was not the validity/invalidity issues. I was reminded of a Eucharist at which you presided in Estes Park, CO at a campus ministry gathering during the 1985/86 winter break. The night before there'd been some conflict between gathering folks that was racial at root. You brought us together, enabled us to own what had happened and what in each and all of us gave rise to it, led us into a repentance which alone made doing Eucharist appropriate. My friend, you exuded from your core what the whole thing was all about. Your account of what happened in the Canyon de Chelly clearly indicates that you did it again, and that you continue to exude from your core what the Eucharist is all about. Bless you.harveyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02941907497760248857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-2112125827673737082010-07-29T23:50:23.994-04:002010-07-29T23:50:23.994-04:00Here's another story:
"Hocus Pocus"...Here's another story:<br /><br />"Hocus Pocus" comes from the magical belief that the words <i>Hoc est corpus meum</i> literally make bread and wine into flesh and blood. Woooo! Spooky! Magic!<br /><br />The sort of childish, self-absorbed "thinking" that passes (and what an accurate word for such "thought") amongst eucharistic puritans who insist on "the right stuff."MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-91445559776450259502010-07-29T23:41:08.737-04:002010-07-29T23:41:08.737-04:00I have no idea why most words posted so many times...I have no idea why most words posted so many times but I've tried to delete the extra versions. Sorry about that.Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01945343859290558131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-65690129311542144532010-07-29T23:39:18.084-04:002010-07-29T23:39:18.084-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01945343859290558131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-26333592231492618932010-07-29T23:38:56.632-04:002010-07-29T23:38:56.632-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01945343859290558131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-87805306315577327022010-07-29T23:38:09.478-04:002010-07-29T23:38:09.478-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01945343859290558131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83705534585689736832010-07-29T23:37:33.482-04:002010-07-29T23:37:33.482-04:00an old and very respectable Episcopal priest in th...an old and very respectable Episcopal priest in the deep south told me of taking some friends and their kids with him on a fishing/ camping trip. All that they had for communion was bread and a fruit flavored soda. So that was used -and he said that he felt that it was one of the most powerful and Christian communion services that he had ever experienced. I trust his judgment on this one.<br /><br />The Rev. Will Campbell, white baptist preacher in the deep south and civil rights advocate in the south in the 60s (and the only white preacher who helped found the Southern Christian Leadership Conference) who ministered Christ to African Americans in Little Rock and Selma and even to the screaming bigots and klansmen who wanted to kill him, has been known to celebrate communion with bourbon. He argues that had Jesus lived and worked with poor white farmers in the deep south and in the hills of TN, he would have used bourbon for the sacrament. As far as I can tell his life gives some credence to his right to make this claim, even for gilded Anglicans who have never had to do the things he did. Some Christians have more authority when it comes to doctrine than a thousand text books of theology and Campbell's life has earned him that authority. I would take a sip of bourbon from his hands knowing that I was truly receiving Christ in the sacrament. <br /><br />In the records of missionary work of the 19th century, many Anglican missionaries reported using local foods and drinks for communion. I remember hearing of cakes of coconut and coconut juice in one example.<br /><br />What is "frivolous," eponym, is getting one's pants in a wad because the special ingredients for the "magic spell" weren't used right. This isn't "sacred magic" we participate in. God isn't bound by us using only the right special ingredients for the "spell." Our God is a mightier God than that who is not controlled by a distinction between wine or grape juice or fruit flavored soda or coconut juice or bourbon or water.<br /><br />Really, this stuff really matters? Of course most of the time we should use wine, but sometimes bigger laws apply. Let the Wiccans imagine that they can control the divine with their spells. Christians should know better - know that God is not controlled by our application of rules or rituals - and Christians should remember the words that the Sabbath was made for us and not us for the Sabbath. <br /><br />This idolatry that the ceremony must be right or else God won't show up is amazing. Perhaps the Quakers and the Salvation Army are right and we need to jettison all of the outward signs for a little while until people ditch the idea that we need to work the "magic" right to get control over God. That kind of paganism is the real threat to the faith.Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01945343859290558131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-63150938094275981112010-07-29T22:02:44.635-04:002010-07-29T22:02:44.635-04:00I remember reading a letter to Episcopal Life in I...I remember reading a letter to Episcopal Life in I think 1984. It was about Navajoland having lost their funding. With no funding there was no priest and with no priest there was no Eucharist. So, the writer wrote, the women would gather, sit in a circle, dig their toes into the ground and pass a cup of water.Lois Keenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13708877817422097051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-81440744668235493702010-07-29T18:56:42.309-04:002010-07-29T18:56:42.309-04:00Interestingly enough, in the Church of Jesus Chris...Interestingly enough, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the normal elements for the celebration of the eucharist (which takes place almost every Sunday in the LDS Church) are bread and water (wine being prohibited by the Word of Wisdom).Mark D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05000893614655251587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-68278969825281014712010-07-29T18:13:45.633-04:002010-07-29T18:13:45.633-04:00"It is manifestly childish"
...and 3 fi..."It is manifestly childish"<br /><br />...and 3 fingers point back at <i>you</i>, eponym.<br /><br /><i>I am very serious: You need to correct this...I am absolutely serious.</i><br /><br />Physician, Heal Thyself!JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-50868474180172720732010-07-29T13:40:09.575-04:002010-07-29T13:40:09.575-04:00A side note -
At a point in their history the Lat...A side note - <br />At a point in their history the Latter-day Saints could only purchase wine for communion from those opposed to them. Rather than do so they used water. LDS congregations around the world to this day celebrate the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper with bread and water, every Sunday.<br /><br />Obviously you have hit a sore note with some Father Mark. Also obvious, there shall probably be those who run to your bishop regarding the matter. I guess you are now prepared to receive a call from the diocese! Not to mention the fodder you have created for the Viagravillians. When they get wind of this they shall revel for days I am sure. This is bound to surpass communing dogs and lay presidency.<br /><br />You have my support for your decision. It is unremarkable to mention that without rain there would be no grape juice or wine. Also, if we start being too critical of the situation then one has to ask does the grape juice/wine for the sacrament have to be from native Middle Eastern grapes? Species native to many other parts of the world could not possibly have been used by Jesus or the early saints. Should we make sure to disqualify juice and wine from strictly native American grapes?<br /><br />As a side note. Always pack some raisins, which are dried grapes. You can mash the raisins in the water, let them soak and prepare reconstituted grape juice. Surely they could not object to that!Brother Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06333089314994730330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27161819862533638202010-07-29T11:31:19.287-04:002010-07-29T11:31:19.287-04:00Wow. Strong reaction from eponym and Bruce. But ...Wow. Strong reaction from eponym and Bruce. But sorry, eponym, I dare say that what Mark described hardly passes the "frivolous" test. I've been to some eucharists that I felt were frivolous in my time, but the "missing element" wasn't bread or wine. It was heart, intention and faith.<br /><br />One of the things I have come to believe is that eucharist is not only a commemoration of the LAST supper of Jesue, but a commemoration of the communion of hearts and minds of all the OTHER of Jesus' suppers. Paul's letter to the Corinthians didn't rail on about rubrics or texts. His concern was that in the focus on self, the members of that community had lost the plot. His challenge was whether they were eating and drinking worthily.<br /><br />Did Mark and that community "remember the death of the Lord until he comes again"? THAT'S the test, in my opinion.<br /><br />Sometimes we improvise. So long as the signs speak the presence of Jesus, it is Sacrament.<br /><br />The Roman Catholic obsession on "correct matter and form" that leads some to declare that any ingredient in the bread other than wheat and water make the "matter invalid" seriously miss the point. That's an atrophied view of Sacrament.<br /><br />I agree that eucharist is a Sacrament of the church. But the church has both its universal and local realities. Sacraments are celebrated in the local reality of time and place AND CIRCUMSTANCE.<br /><br />I commend the writings of Kenan Osborne OFM, a RC theologian at Berkeley, on sacraments in the 21st century as a pointer towards asking the right questions. He certainly addresses the "objective v. subjective" issues you raise, eponym.<br /><br />Mark, it sounds to me that the improvisation brought a new and different dimension towards the eucharistic experience. I bet the reflection on water will reside in the minds and hearts of your group for a long time.<br /><br />Lou Poulain, Sunnyvale CAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-31480853163958924782010-07-29T11:29:37.200-04:002010-07-29T11:29:37.200-04:00Okay, I'm not a priest, but aren't you guy...Okay, I'm not a priest, but aren't you guys not seeing the forest for the trees? Is wine such an integral part that you can't have communion without it, or is there a deeper meaning to it?gwynhirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18372448585914613642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-88540039474438577862010-07-29T11:18:27.224-04:002010-07-29T11:18:27.224-04:00Of course, since partaking of one element counts a...Of course, since partaking of one element counts as a full Eucharist, one could just as easily say that the bread was the Eucharistic bread and the water was an add-in. I probably would have just omitted the water and gone with that.Tom Sramek, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17891982131922786298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-83214545869309029682010-07-29T09:47:07.669-04:002010-07-29T09:47:07.669-04:00With eight adults in this group, it sounds as if a...With eight adults in this group, it sounds as if a little better planning would have avoided the need for any such improvisation. Taking a small amount of wine for the Eucharist can hardly be considered "bootlegging" since it is never used commercially. When going off into a wilderness all the supplies must be packed in and someone just forgot to include those for a Eucharist. Why romanticize it?bmars52https://www.blogger.com/profile/01396300593534894455noreply@blogger.com