tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post9040949774799473449..comments2024-02-15T03:32:25.686-05:00Comments on Preludium, Anglican and Episcopal futures: Giving up stuff, Reconstituting, and otherwise saying good by.Mark Harrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06871096746243771489noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-40975549198798214612009-06-27T20:16:19.031-04:002009-06-27T20:16:19.031-04:00Re: Robroy's comment,
"What does the ch...Re: Robroy's comment, <br /><br />"What does the church today emphasize? Relationships — <i>a personal relationship with Jesus and healthy relationships with others.</i> By focusing on relationships, churches partners with women to fulfill their deepest longing. Very few churches model men’s values which include risk and reward, accomplishment, heroic sacrifice, action and adventure."<br /><br /><br />"Jesus said, 'The first commandment is this: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is the only Lord. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.'" Mark 12:29-31; as found in the Penitential Order of the Book of Common Prayer. <br /><br />Seems to me that robroy is concerned with "values"; but the Gospel trumps values, every time.Christopher (P.)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-89357033849676359012009-06-27T14:35:27.548-04:002009-06-27T14:35:27.548-04:00"Macho, macho man...""Macho, macho man..."Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-6588227380253922422009-06-26T13:22:03.501-04:002009-06-26T13:22:03.501-04:00Who said anything about privilege? We all suffer....Who said anything about privilege? We all suffer. It's part of being mortal.<br /><br />God is the Lord of History. We are all creatures of history. We can't step out of it or see out of it.<br /><br />History is not just 1st century Judea. History is here and now, and it is our responsibility with all its vulgarity, dirt, and messiness.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-15099508937675066032009-06-26T12:26:06.636-04:002009-06-26T12:26:06.636-04:00Please remember that I was trying to clear up a mi...Please remember that I was trying to clear up a misconception, not trying to make the point that the more pain you have in life, the better your afterlife will be. Not my point at all.<br /> I don't think that suffering makes you a better person, that it makes what you have to say more interesting or more moral; I certainly don't think that 'hermeneutical privilege' comes from having suffered or being a member of a group that's suffered.<br /> By making historical grievances an important part of public life, both Left and Right in church and state have given a huge numbers of hostages to fortune.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-59401519762432679372009-06-26T12:23:18.933-04:002009-06-26T12:23:18.933-04:00Unfortunately, Friend Penn didn't say. He see...Unfortunately, Friend Penn didn't say. He seems to have led a fairly comfortable, privileged existence so I'm guessing not too much.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-55396380919166881022009-06-26T10:38:02.840-04:002009-06-26T10:38:02.840-04:00"Penn's thesis was that nobody is truly a..."Penn's thesis was that nobody is truly a follower of Jesus without suffering. He wasn't claiming that believers have to "feel the burn" on earth to avoid burning in hell."<br /><br />So, how much suffering is enough to pass this test?<br /><br />It seems to me that there is plenty to go around already with misfortune, illness, pain, and death being the common lot of all of us, rich and poor alike. In addition to that, there is a surplus of extra suffering out there. Firewood is still the primary fuel for a third of humankind, to take just one example among many out there. While the Church is so preoccupied with policing everyone's genitals, thousands upon thousands of people in this country are losing their jobs and their homes. Illness forces thousands on people into bankruptcy here. So much of the modern economy depends on the poorly requited (or not requited at all) toil of millions. Our convenience more often than not depends on someone else's suffering. I should think that kind of exploitation degrades God's image in us all far more than what anyone does on a Saturday night.<br />Could it be that all this sex-policing is just another way to keep us all cowed and under control in order to preserve the status quo that is so very profitable for a fortunate few? <br />I don't hear the Supreme Leader of ACNA saying a word about any of those issues.<br /><br />It seems to me that Christ coming into the world and throwing around love and salvation to all like candy should be welcome in a world where people have to endure far more tests and pay more admission fees than they can already handle.<br /><br />I stake my faith on the belief that God offers us His salvation because He wants us to be with Him, not because anyone "earned" it. No one could possibly earn that, not in a million lifetimes.<br /><br />In the words of William Blake:<br />"To God, if you have formed a circle to go into, then go into it yourself and see how you would do."<br /><br />Word verification: didityel<br />Indeed it did.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-62369188818533221792009-06-26T00:14:34.430-04:002009-06-26T00:14:34.430-04:00No, counterlight, and that was not what I was sugg...No, counterlight, and that was not what I was suggesting. Penn's thesis was that nobody is truly a follower of Jesus without suffering. He wasn't claiming that believers have to "feel the burn" on earth to avoid burning in hell.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-27387015643278872932009-06-25T20:23:48.639-04:002009-06-25T20:23:48.639-04:00""No Cross, No Crown" was the title...""No Cross, No Crown" was the title of a book by William Penn, the Quaker founder of Pennsylvania. It had nothing to do with beating up catholic immigrants."<br /><br />But it wasn't exactly about pulling yourself up into heaven by your own bootstraps either.Counterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-86027774714454782092009-06-25T10:48:34.661-04:002009-06-25T10:48:34.661-04:00"No Cross, No Crown" was the title of a ..."No Cross, No Crown" was the title of a book by William Penn, the Quaker founder of Pennsylvania. It had nothing to do with beating up catholic immigrants.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-785216042470289072009-06-25T09:27:40.188-04:002009-06-25T09:27:40.188-04:00Henry Austin--Say more, post more. Your comments ...Henry Austin--Say more, post more. Your comments are so timely and true.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08081057869810309769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-82134405640469962272009-06-25T08:21:49.886-04:002009-06-25T08:21:49.886-04:00Someone wrote:
How about MORE time being spent on ...Someone wrote:<br /><i>How about MORE time being spent on how the wizened leadership of TEC will do more than bust a gut to run to the fringe groups of the Church.</i><br /><br />No one for whom Christ died and whom the Church has baptized is part of a "fringe group"... though there will always be people who want to marginalize some of their brothers and sisters in Christ; such people need our constant prayers for their repentance and conversion.WilliamKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14545955266846478775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-92137572040733324932009-06-25T08:06:30.402-04:002009-06-25T08:06:30.402-04:00I always thought that the term "muscular Chri...I always thought that the term "muscular Christianity" originated with Charles Kingsley and his circle, an implicit rebuke to what was considered the excessive femininity of Victorian Catholocism, especially as exemplified by Newman.<br /><br />If I remember correctly, P.G. Wodehouse used to love using the term in connection with Bertie Wooster's great pal, the large and clumsy Rev. Harold "Stinker" Pinker.rick allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07612435616018593956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1994970442282482952009-06-25T07:03:57.006-04:002009-06-25T07:03:57.006-04:00I could be wrong, but wasn't "no cross no...I could be wrong, but wasn't "no cross no crown!" a slogan of the anti-immigrant anti-Catholic No-Nothings of the early 19th century?<br /><br />As for "muscular" Christianity, I can think of no better rejoinder than this painting by that pansy Amsterdam liberal, Rembrandt:<br /><br />http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CijcaA9yq58/SkLVcnIEQfI/AAAAAAAACiU/oO8zB9a4qAg/s1600-h/Rembrandt,+Christ+on+the+Cross,+1631.jpgCounterlighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345956180434795401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-70474495826462274962009-06-25T04:07:11.464-04:002009-06-25T04:07:11.464-04:00Sir, I am hoping you will now address your old fri...Sir, I am hoping you will now address your old friend Bob Duncan as "Archbishop" rather than "Moderator" - given his title has changed, even if you have issues with ACNA and do not recognise his title in TECUSA or the AC context, out of respect for the man, I hope you will no longer call him "Moderator"Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-58062238287144937362009-06-24T23:57:25.364-04:002009-06-24T23:57:25.364-04:00I can understand why someone would use the term &q...I can understand why someone would use the term "muscular Christianity" but certainly have reservations about its use - not the least of which is the sense of using force to spread the faith. I would much prefer that the term "Christianity with conviction" was used instead, to get away from the mystic waffle which seems to be invading some sectors. That term would honour both sides who equally hold deeply seated although opposing views on matters of faith and morals. Hopefully it would also eliminate any overtones of hyper-masculine domination, but convey the sense that there are things about God about which we can be certain.<br /><br />There are few things worse than a vapid Christian. Jesus knew what he was on about and didn't waste people's time or prevaricate with the truth. He was the strongest man who ever lived, not in a worldy sense that we need to depart from, but in the sense of his conviction of who his Father is and what he needed to do. The trouble is that many liberals are still asking the question "what is truth?", and talk about being on a journey to still discover the truth when it is right in front of their eyes. If only we were all more like Jesus.Brian Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938619697698149146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-1953624989614290122009-06-24T20:28:37.906-04:002009-06-24T20:28:37.906-04:00OMG!!! That image of the crucifix....!!!! OH BARF!...OMG!!! That image of the crucifix....!!!! OH BARF!!!<br /><br />Whew --No strong man Jesus for me, thanks!it's margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13577280471100732619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-45075058694944413612009-06-24T20:23:03.781-04:002009-06-24T20:23:03.781-04:00Please take a look at George Carlin's material...Please take a look at George Carlin's material-it's just over a year since he died, so check out what he had to say about religion.<br /> It may help you.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-71121953850591998512009-06-24T20:09:16.652-04:002009-06-24T20:09:16.652-04:00Just saying, if they want "Muscular Christian...Just saying, if they want "Muscular Christianity," I think they need to excerise the part of their brains that deals with high ideals rather than low cunning.Bonniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08081057869810309769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-134441190795161622009-06-24T18:29:21.685-04:002009-06-24T18:29:21.685-04:00The comments on muscular Christianity do not reach...The comments on muscular Christianity do not reach back far enough. I first heard the term in a theology lecture by William Wolf of The Episcopal Theological School back in the late fifties. He spoke of Pelagius, who was said to have "arrived in Rome fresh from a British YMCA with muscular Christianity." Wolf was obviously quoting someone even earlier. Justly, or not, Pelagius was condemned as a heretic. Perhaps would-be ++Robert is trying to revive a point of view that has only been supported in a half-hearted way by the Episcopal Church. Why be a semi-pelagian when you can with enthusiasm go the whole nine yards?<br />Phillip CatoPhillip Catonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-43563797152354169832009-06-24T14:55:20.381-04:002009-06-24T14:55:20.381-04:00It reeks of male hetero fears that religion in gen...It reeks of male hetero fears that religion in general (and christianity in particular)was (and is) becoming a woman's/gay male thing.<br /> Which, if you look at any mainline protestant seminary, is pretty accurate.Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-25328553195392339262009-06-24T14:49:38.321-04:002009-06-24T14:49:38.321-04:00And now the Orthodox Church in America has transfe...And now the Orthodox Church in America has transferred its affections.....Brad Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381562723928616425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-76625916142514428922009-06-24T14:40:17.800-04:002009-06-24T14:40:17.800-04:00Before I got banned at StandFirm - I posted on a t...Before I got banned at StandFirm - I posted on a thread, wondering out loud if realignment was the New Leather, except for lacking a two way adult consent process and a safe word or two? - I slogged through a thread or more about how Christians these days just needed to Man-Up. <br /><br />Lots of symbolic talk about gunning for Jesus. Really. I was a little taken by surprise; but in retrospect, probably should have seen it all coming.<br /><br />Part of what makes Duncan, Duncan, is that he considers himself a sort of John Wayne man-believer.Daniel Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13132658805227245932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-24768585607168886162009-06-24T14:34:26.702-04:002009-06-24T14:34:26.702-04:00At the risk of sounding a little "off thread,...At the risk of sounding a little "off thread," I, a frequent reader but rare commentor, would like to note the opportunity bestowed on us by the ACNA crowd's formalizing of the split. It seems to me we are now unwed. We can now re-focus on the real needs of the world, and stop obsessing about what our "ex" is doing.<br /><br />I confess that I come here, and to other church blogs, almost daily to read about the latest outrage. Focusing so much energy on the conflict is surely normal when one is in the middle of it. At some point, we need to move on. <br /><br />There are pressing commitments we need to fulfill--of doing justice to our LGBT brothers and sisters. Let's live into our prophetic call and realize that at GC. Let's repent of using them as a bargaining chip in the Anglican wars, and clear the way for ordinations and same-sex blessings. Let's move on.<br /><br />I can say without rancor, and with a blessing for those who've departed, it's time to let go. There is no intention to engage in a "listening process," nor to abide by a moratorium on boundary crossings. We are forebearing, in hopes of saving a relationship that has ended.<br /><br />The Episcopal Church is full of wonderful, faithful people, who need their leaders to lead, and stop obsessing over the past. We are living through a time of great change. Let's not be afraid to move ahead and do what is right.<br /><br />Henryhenry austinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-8999157239821743662009-06-24T13:41:11.123-04:002009-06-24T13:41:11.123-04:00I don't like the term "muscular Christian...I don't like the term "muscular Christianity" either. It evokes stupidity like <a href="http://tinyurl.com/kuk7px" rel="nofollow">Bodybuilders for Christ</a>, a notion that is antithetical Jesus' turning the other cheek as well as the cross itself. ABp Duncan isn't talking about that silly notion. Rather, he IS talking about a call to suffer, to take up one's cross. <br /> <br />I read this about the emasculation of the mainstream denominations:<br /> <br /><i> What does the church today emphasize? Relationships — a personal relationship with Jesus and healthy relationships with others. By focusing on relationships, churches partners with women to fulfill their deepest longing. Very few churches model men’s values which include <b>risk and reward, accomplishment, heroic sacrifice, action and adventure.</b></i><br /> <br />Face it. Lesbian clergy preaching about the blessings of abortions are not go to draw men in. Most women would like to attend church with their menfolk, so men attending church attracts women as well. This is reality.<br /><br />P.S. - an excellent tale of graciousness, Father Weir.robroynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10326675.post-627172079406046042009-06-24T13:24:08.451-04:002009-06-24T13:24:08.451-04:00I think muscular Christianity is a really really o...I think muscular Christianity is a really really odd thing to bring up at this time.¨ Fr. Harris<br /><br />This brings to mind for me Rumsfeld and Karl Rove issuing masculine challenges to enter war...you know, because we are heroic fools who believe lies and jive? I suggest as Bob Duncan continues to pontificate in Texas that he ¨remember the Alamo¨ as he adornes himself with a pointy Davey Crocker hat.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.com