The hardest thing about being Christian these days is living with that constant taste of shame and embarrassment in one's mouth. So many people do and say the worst most malicious things, all in the name of Christ and Christianity. Almost 5 centuries ago, Montaigne wrote, "When they try to become angels, men become beasts." It's still true today. Religion brings out the best in people, but it can also bring out the very worst.As Paul Tillich once remarked, the last thing Jesus wanted to do in this world was to found Christianity. Churches are but means to an end, and to be discarded when that end is accomplished.I think the conflict in the Episcopal Church is over, the schismatics have left, The Anglican Communion will do whatever it will do with or without us, and tomorrow is another day.
BRILLIANT! I think that sums it up pretty well. I especially like the "leave the silver" part.
And on top of everything else, the reformers can't spell "aren't." ;-)
Fr. mark,I like the divide. Next we throw a rope across and play tug of war?
Works on a PC too. And it is a brilliant explanation of the current status.
susan...thanks...I think I'll leave it for now. A reminder of self-limitation.
The diagram could easily be reversed, viz.:(Progressives) "Here's why our sexual behavior should be glorified, in the face of 2,000 years of Christendom teaching otherwise."(Mainstream) "We hear you. We don't agree."(P) "You're not listening."(M) "No, we hear you. We don't agree."(P) "There are two groups here, the wrong one and the right one."(M) "Oh, and us?"(P) "The wrong one; you're bigots."And so forth. There is no free lunch, in the form of virtue, for the "Progressives."
Actually, to be most accurate, we need to have the dialogue on Mark's melded with the dialogue on Phil's comment. For at the same time the progressives were saying "we hear you" they were *also* saying "you're bigots". And, both sides have gone to the Traditions of the faith (including scripture) with our preconceived notions of who was in the right church and who was in the wrong one. Hint - "right church" is always first-person.*sigh*
Funny how "Ok, we disagree. We think we're right, and you think you're right; now how 'bout we forgeddabudit and have Eucharist and figure God will sort it out in His own time" never seems to enter the picture. aaarrrgh.That just leads to (R): "Cuz you have a gay person/woman makin' the funny little sign over the chalice and that just not only doesn't count, it's wrong."Oy vey.How come in an emergency, practically everyone but the family dog can do certain sacraments, but the P's and R's can't come to the Eucharistic table together, without someone being an "apostate"?Arrgh again.
I think the point comes when a Church carries on being Church, and its leaders tend to its needs and cares, and just let whatever these other external bureaucratic structures do what they want and ignore them while setting out to make relationships with whoever wants them on belief and practical grounds. Time to move on.
Sums it all up, in my view.... the words is "nessart" ;=)
What Pluralist said.
Don't worry Mark. And don't be down too long.I read at the Cafe that ++KJS stopped to comfort a woman in tears during the procession into church at the provisional convention for FW. --and it is reported that she said, 'don't worry. everything is going to be okay.'Take that to heart, dear man.
What a neat drawing. I think it about sums up where we are. A ravine offers two potential actions. If the people on both sides agree to peace, a bridge can be built. Alternately, if peace is not acceptible, they make dandy defensive boundaries. So if the wrong wing insists, they can claim they are living in Bolivia and keep the Gospel on the other side.FWIWjimB
What Kirkepiscatoid said. Arrgh.[Though, Kirk, reThat just leads to (R): "Cuz you have a gay person/woman makin' the funny little sign over the chalice and that just not only doesn't count, it's wrong."should be amended to "you have a gay person/woman *OR* a straight male who doesn't think anything's sinfully wacky about a gay person/woman makin' the funny little sign..."]And again, Aargh!
I would appreciate it if you would stop pretending the "there is room for all of us" thing. My experience with the assistant Bp. of Mass.Bp: We have extreme reservations about you receiving a call at X church.Me: But what about the broad tent and room for all of us?Bp (exact quote): "The tent has narrowed."The liberals have systematically excluded the orthodox for years. Please stop pretending.
"The liberals have systematically excluded the orthodox for years. Please stop pretending."While the "orthodox" would require blood tests for doctrinal and sexual purity for everyone at the church door.
There is a known fact that unhealthy relationships continue in the same manner when the parties keep responding in the same manner. It is time to disentangle, and do something different. So much energy has been wasted in trying to change the thinking and understanding of the "orthodox," and they have wasted time and energy trying to change those of us who believe we are on the right course. I cannot speak for everyone of course, but I make the choice to be a part of the Episcopal Church because I love the church and love what the church represents in the world of Christianity. I would rather work on building the body of faith in our church. That needs to be the focus.
WEll look at the comments, for the truth of the cartoon.QED.If the argument is, the church has believed this for X years, we would still believe that the sun revolves around the earth, that Blacks are marked by Cain, that left-handers are marked by Satan, that the ill are possessed by demons, that women are the property of men, etc etc etc. IT
Counterlight writes, "I think the conflict in the Episcopal Church is over, the schismatics have left, The Anglican Communion will do whatever it will do with or without us, and tomorrow is another day."This is extremely naive. 815 is embarking on a major multifront litigation war that will result in either Pyrrhic victory or loss. This war promises years of headlines proclaiming to the general public that the Episcopal church is the one that sues. The denomination spent hundreds of thousands of dollars taking out a full page ad in the NY Times which was repeated. That effort is more than erased by the barrage of headlines from Virginia alone. (Ask any reader of the NYT if they remember the ad and whether they know about the lawsuits. No one wasn't to join a gang war.) If the denomination wins in any of the four departing dioceses, the bad publicity generated by pictures of parishioners filing out of their churches will be catastrophic. And the timing of the escalation could not be worse. The new triennium budget is based on fantasy that diocesan giving will increase by 1%, 2% and 2%. Even with this outlandish assumption, the vaunted centerpiece MDG budget was axed. So, unfortunately, Mark+ is correct to be depressed.
Robroy,Not only don't you get Jesus, you obviously don't understand the courts. Precedants are being set in some cases now. The next big thing will be when the Federal Courts over rule Virginia. After that and a case to toss Mr. Iker out of the space he is trying to steal in Texas, it will take about 10 minutes to litigate anothe theft. Courts do not waste a lot of time going over decided issues.FWIWjimB
I'm still waiting for the prophesied mass exodus of disaffected laity from the Episcopal Church to materialize. It appears to me that, far from following their bishops in lockstep, the 4 "dissenting" dioceses broke apart rather than "left" the Episcopal Church. I don't see any huge wave of people eager to follow those bishops to Buenos Aires.I realize that the right wingers like to paint 815 First Avenue as something like the Kremlin under Stalin, but I'm afraid the reality is closer to a college administration with lots of intrigue, factionalism, bureaucratic gobblty gook, inefficiencies, and efforts to straddle huge differences between sharply competing interests and ideologies. I know people who work there.I suppose naive is in the eye of the beholder. I recall a certain "Mayberry Machiavelli" who was convinced that the Republican party would dominate politics for generations to come. I also remember a certain state senator from Illinois who was considered a mere community organizer and a naif. Where are they now?In the Episcopal Church, the right wing schism has played all their cards and done their worst. Unless there's another big right wing sugar daddy out there like Ahmanson to finance a century's worth of litigation over who gets to walk away with the property, I'd say it's basically over for now.Again, I'm puzzled by all these far right wingers who have already left the Episcopal Church and shaken its dust from their feet in disgust. Despite that, they remain so fixated on it, so determined to see the Episcopal Church destroyed. Perhaps its time to move on and to start a new life.
Mark,I hope you don't mind, but I expanded on your diagram of Anglicanland, including Mr. Phil's comments and created a skit on my blog.
Arkansas Hillbilly...I like it! Here is the link folks: http://arkansashillbilly.blogspot.com/2009/02/revised-conversations-in-anglicanland.html
it is amazing how easily revisionists take to wallowing in self-righteousness...... now, think about the exchange from the point of view of the ABC in his ruined time at Canterbury given the divisions caused by TECUSA since 2003.....can you see him asking for restraint and respect for the mind of the Communion and revisionists saying sure but doing the what they want anyway? It would be easy to write a biased dialogue between him and TECUSA..... it is very easy to smear enemies...... but it does not achieve much because all can spin.Counterlight - you're still waiting for an exodus? Well ACNA is already 1/7th of the size of TEC and TEC is shrinking.....also, did you notice GAFCON....and have you noticed that the ABC who does not agree with Lambeth 1.10 just led a Primates meeting which has AGAIN reiterated it.....you are kidding yourself if you look at just TEC, it is necessary to look at TEC in the context of the AC (given TEC is desperate to stay in the AC and does compromise like BO33 to stay in......unfortunately for your wishful thinking, ACNA are in line with most of the AC and TEC is so small that it is scared to leave the AC....so, your TEC dissident is AC mainstream)
Observer...its time for you to move on to your own blog... I assume you have one. Give us the url so we can read what you have to say there. You've about had enough time here baiting the hook with B033 to see if you can get a bite.
Mark,It is your blog and you can show the door to anyone you wish. And, sure, dear old "observer" has probably been a little repetitive.But I do wonder if you are unable to tolerate him or her at a blog, is there room for theological conservatives, even cranky ones, in your church?
"Counterlight - you're still waiting for an exodus? Well ACNA is already 1/7th of the size of TEC and TEC is shrinking...."*yawn*
The former Episcopalians in ACNA account for something in the order of half it's claimed membership.The former Canadian Anglicans are not former Episcopalians.The Reformed Episcopal Church and the assortment of miniscule "continuing" Anglican bodies were never part of the Episcopal Church.And quite apart from the dishonest double counting of some members (ie, an FiF member who has aligned with the decamping diocese of San Joaquin), there are a goodly number of members of FiF and other non-diocesan structures who have not actually left the Episcopal Church at all.Nana used to tell me that figures lie and liars figure. Why did Nana's words come to mind in the two days it took ACNA's claimed MEMBERSHIP to morph into ACNA's claimed AVERAGE SUNDAY ATTENDANCE?
If you go to the St. David's Anglican Church, North Hollywood website and read their newsletter, it offers some inside info into this new church. The schizmatic congregations in California are currently organizing themselves into a proto-diocese to be recognized at the ACNA organizing synod this summer.The Canadians and Statesonians are forsaking their democratic heritages and bishops in this new church will be chosen for the people by the ACNA College of Bishops. (How very African of them.) The diocese will get to suggest a list of 2 or 3 "Godly men" from which the CoB can choose their new bishop for them.The AMiA organization and the Reformed Episcopal Church are slated to both remain separate entities within the ACNA, personal prelatures, so to speak. So a REC or AMiA parish amidst the parishes of a geographical ACNA diocese will answer to a non-geographical bishop in their own personal non-geographical prelature.After the organizing synod this summer, which will officially create all the proto-dioceses into dioceses, they then anticipate the CoB to have selected and installed all the new bishops by Fall, under the leadership of the soon to be Archbishop/Primate.Hopefully Archjester Duncan has all his new primatial regalia crafted and ready to use on all of those future oh-so-festive occasions.
My experience with the assistant Bp. of Mass.Bp: We have extreme reservations about you receiving a call at X church.Me: But what about the broad tent and room for all of us?Bp (exact quote): "The tent has narrowed."The liberals have systematically excluded the orthodox for years. Please stop pretending.Hey there, bold "Anonymous": you expect us to believe, what? That you were denied ordination in DioMass on the basis of affirming the Nicene Creed? I doubt that, VERY much.
jimb said:"Not only don't you get Jesus, you obviously don't understand the courts. Precedants are being set in some cases now. The next big thing will be when the Federal Courts over rule Virginia. After that and a case to toss Mr. Iker out of the space he is trying to steal in Texas, it will take about 10 minutes to litigate anothe theft. Courts do not waste a lot of time going over decided issues."Umm jimb in case you havent noticed the texas courts do not follow the california courts. So the hundreds of thousands of dollars that ECUSA has spent to obtain the california decision are just that - money spent for a california decision.Right now the fight is about even - ECUSA won in CA but lost in VA.Before you go clamoring about the dennis canon in a texas court - you might want to take a look at the texas property code relating to trusts - which says in relevant part: "A trust in either real or personal property is enforceable only if there is written evidence of the trust's terms bearing the signature of the settlor or the settlor's authorized agent."Since canons are not signed - you have a real problem on your hands here in Texas.TexasAnglicanAs
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