Colin Coward says it most clearly over on Changing Attitude, in a entry titled, Why aren't conservatives reporting the Nigerian church position paper?
He asks, "Do the various organisations which are connecte d with the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) support in its entirety the position paper presented in the name of Archbishop Peter Akinola at the hearing on Wednesday?
None of their websites or blogs has reported the hearing or reproduced the paper. Anglican Mainstream as usual has a comprehensive range of reports with a focus on secular and religious news in North America and the UK but nothing on Nigeria. There’s nothing on CANA, VirtueOnline, T19 or Stand Firm."
He further asks, "I would like to know whether other Global South leaders, and in particular, Chris Sugden and Martyn Minns, agree with the content of the position paper and the attitudes expressed about LGBT Anglicans."
Good questions! Not only about it "in its entirety," but in its particulars concerning the support of the bill before the Nigerian legislature.
In an earlier blog I asked, "And when will there be any response from the Convocation of Anglicans in North America, or the GAFCON wannabe Province, now the Common Cause Partnership, concerning their close association with this hate mongering mess?"
Same idea, different page.
The Nigerian bill and the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) paper in support of the bill is now available in a more accessible format over on Lionel Deimel's Web Log.
So, where are the answers?
Heh... great question, and I think we know the answer.
ReplyDeleteAs I posted today (which you may want to read given it is not directly on this topic--not Akinola, but Bul/Sudan) once again the IRD comes home to roost taking not only a hearty swipe at TEC but the lgbt community with a heavy dose of guilt.
I will not type what I really think about both IRD, Mc Donnell and the IRD.
I suppose that the kerfuffle is because the Nigerian legislation does propose punishment for same sex "marriages" in contrast to the overwhelming majority of states here in the U.S. which simply ban it without mention of punishment?
ReplyDeleteAnglican Curmudgeon points out that all African countries save South Africa outlaw homosexual acts. And in fact, he also points out that the punishment for same sex marriage is less than for homosexual acts themselves. Thus, the only impact of the legislation is really for homosexuals who want to enter into platonic "marriages." Thus, the real significance of the legislation is about nil.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the fact that Nigeria's church is led by the liberals' arch-nemesis ++Akinola!
And wait! Aren't we autonomous entities that don't have to listen to the criticisms of fellow members of the Anglican Federation vs Communion? So why should the Church of Nigeria care when the Americans routinely extend the finger to the rest of the communion?
If they have any last shred of decency left, then their silence ought to be out of embarrassment.
ReplyDeleteAs every LGBT person knows, the hardest part of the coming out experience is coming out to yourself. There is more self denial that lasts over a longer period of time, and more "deaths" to our self perceptions that occur during that process than happen in the coming out to family and friends.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this is the cause of the silence, for all their "no, we don't believe in punishment" statements, the truth is, very simply, they do. In the dark of their bed at night, when their secrets are known to God alone, they wish the disappearance of those who challenge all they think they know. Just as so many of us who are gay, prayed for that reality to go away, they pray for us to just go away. And since their god is a Vengeful god, a punishing god, that is the god they wish on us. To save us, of course!
At last Fulcrum is tackling and readdressing the issue, and there you can see a spread of views. Even those who take a 'high' view of scripture, as they'd call it, or a collective slow-it-down view of the Communion, even centralisation, should react against oppression of a minority, to show that evangelicals too will not accept what Nigeria is doing, and what (mainly here) the Nigerian Church is pursuing.
ReplyDeleteThe model for expulsion would be the British Commonwealth, a loose collection of nations with cultural and other ties. When a nation loses core aspects of liberty or democracy it gets expelled. Nothing much is it, but a sign.
Robroy,
ReplyDeleteI don't care about ABp Akinola, I do want to know about you. Simple question -- do you support the Nigerian paper?
Robroy,
ReplyDeleteI suggest you read the Nigerian Church's statement, and the full text of the legislation posted over at Thinking Anglicans:
http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/003697.html
A lot more than "marriages" will be made illegal if this legislation passes. For example, this entire conversation would be subject to prosecution and prison.
As far as I can see, this legislation is a hunting license for the police. It's a license for settling scores, getting rid of political opposition, and getting rid of inconvenient people. It is a way for the state to scapegoat a despised minority while distracting the public.
Where have we seen that before?
Reminder. We are speaking of Akinola promoted/backed legislation (and Orombi in Uganda) that will demonize, outcast, jail and murder tens of thousands of LGBT Christians and others...we're NOT discussing a little political controversy at The Anglican Communion concerning bad liberals vs. viscious self-righteousness on the lam...Akinola/Orombi are hate-fear mongers and dangerous old men who harm others...physically, morally, spiritually...no wonder fanatics, Christian/others is operating on demented ideals of purity and passion that will flat line after there is no longer any pontificating to be done...Akinola, Orombi and their ilk are senseless strivers who promote ill-will and a convulted version of love and good-will at The Body of Christ.
ReplyDeleteI challenged them about this from HOBD--- but silence from all who love to take notes from their and chew them over endlessly -- verrrry strange.
ReplyDeleteWell, it looks like the sounding brass has shared his opinion with us. Can the tinkling cymbal be far behind?
ReplyDeleteThus, the real significance of the legislation is about nil.
ReplyDeleteDishonest as usual Robroy.
This Curmudgeon makes joke that two same gender folks should get married because the proposed prison term is only a third of the term for actual conviction of homosexuality. He does not point out that in something like 16 northern states of Nigeria, which recognize Islamist law, homosexuality is punishable by death by stoning. Hardly something about which to jest.
The Curmudgeon also quotes some Nigerian who says their laws there are seldom enforced so there is no real worry. However this same Nigerian idiot thinks child pornography is children viewing porn, as is obvious from the Curmudgeon's supplied quote.
Robroy, at this point I can’t but wonder how profitable would it actually be to challenge your comment.
ReplyDeleteJust because I don’t think it would really help you.
But in such hope, I’ll tell you this much.
New Hampshire gathered in synod and elected (as in, a canonical majority of those with canonical right to vote) to elect a priest ALREADY in good standing in the diocese and well known and loved by most.
New Westminster gathered in synod and passed a motion (as in, a canonical majority of those with the canonical right to vote) supporting the celebration of rites of blessing of same sex unions.
Akinola, on the other hand, by his own and individual will and disgust towards what he appears to believe non heterosexual people are, and just to give you an example of what the documents recently released tell us about, is ACTUALLY SUGGESTING the LENGTH of JAIL TIME to be given BY THE STATE to people who WITNESS ‘same sex ceremonies’.
I will tell you that much. Now, if you don’t mind, I have a life, even if you don't have a clue.
Leonel
When Davis Mac-Iyalla's friend was attacked in Nigeria at Davis' sister's funeral last year, and even the Archbishop of Canterbury wrote an open letter to GAFCON asking them to turn down the rhetoric because that, too, can kill, not a single conservative supported him.
ReplyDeleteWhen I later wrote my own open letter to GAFCON and asked people on Thinking Anglicans so sign it too, a number of people responded. Not one of the conservatives who had consistently told me that they abhor violence, and that they hate the sin but love the sinner, did.
When pushed, most remained silent.
One or two answered that it was so obvious that they didn't approve of violence in principle, that nothing else needed to be said, especially not in a case where I had no proof and the whole story was probably just made up.
Things don't change.
Robroy, at the same time you were being asked to clarify whether you really believed that throwing someone into a Nigerian jail for 5 years was a valid punishment for loving another person. You refused to answer for weeks and weeks and weeks.
Do I take your comment here as acknowleding that banning something you disapprove of isn't enough, but that years in an inhuman jail are appropriate?
Things don't change.
The real question is - what can we in the West DO about this? What, other than talking, can we actually DO to stop this outrage and to help our brothers and sisters in Africa?
The Yelwa massacre's just fine with you, RR?
ReplyDeleteMartyn Minns and little Bobby Duncan are there. Big Pete acknowledged their presence in his full speech.
ReplyDeleteBTW: Hey, Robroy, you need to take a chill pill. You're gonna stroke out bud.
Lapin,
ReplyDeleteIf you have any evidence that Peter Akinola had anything to do with the Yelwa massacre, please present it. Innuendo is not enough. Episcopal Cafe restricts itself to saying there are questions. You imply rather more than that, for which you need evidence.
Fred,
Yes Martyn Minns and Robert Duncan are in Nigeria. When they get back to the US I am sure they will be asked about this, so lets wait to we hear what they say before we condeman them.
Obadiah Slope
"Yes Martyn Minns and Robert Duncan are in Nigeria. When they get back to the US I am sure they will be asked about this, so lets wait to we hear what they say before we condeman them."
ReplyDeleteObadiah Slope
Oh yes, what a good idea. Perhaps you, Obadiah, will do the interview with Minns and Duncan and report back on your findings...you're such a great delver into real "issues" and I know your answer/update will be straight forward and honest.
Thanks in advance.
Dah-veed', the good Curmudgeon does indeed comment on the fact that the Muslims in northern Nigeria mete out capital punishment for homosexuality:
ReplyDeleteMoreover, half of Nigeria's population are Muslims. Where is the evenhanded condemnation of that religion's well-known views about same-sex relations? Where are the charges hurled at Nigeria's leading imams and Muslim scholars who are also backing this legislation (and who hand out capital punishment for gays in their own states in northern Nigeria)?"
Pointing specious reasoning does not entail "making a joke." I have always found it bizarre how liberals like Chane can ignore this about their Muslim friends in the Gaza, Lebanon and Iran.
Again, it seems that the liberals have their systolic blood pressure over 200 because the proposed legislation dares to specify a punishment in contrast to the majority of states here in the U.S. that simply outlaw same sex "marriages." If one makes the punishment three years or thirty years, the effect is the same - there won't be any such ceremonies in Nigeria.
Now, do I have issues with the criminalization of open discussion? Of course. I cherish the freedom of speech that we enjoy here. (And what is the greatest threat to that freedom? The "hate" speech laws being pushed by the homosexual activists.) It has been alleged (Counterlight 14/3/09 9:51 AM) that the legislation affects freedom of speech in Nigeria. "A lot more than "marriages" will be made illegal if this legislation passes. For example, this entire conversation would be subject to prosecution and prison." This is false from my reading of the text of the legislation (see here).
Leonel, you misunderstand ++Akinola's point about the specific jail terms. (I won't talk about whether you have "a clue" or not.) The original legislation gives the abettors or sanctifiers of the same sex marriages a five year jail term and the actual couple a three year jail term. ++Akinola says that the terms should be reversed which, I guess, is to say that the couple is more culpable. Again, my point is that it is pretty much irrelevant. If their desire is to make certain such ceremonies don't take place, then they only need to make to prescribed punishments sufficiently severe.
Anonymous @ 11:19 pm
ReplyDeleteThe truly bizarre part of the Akinola - Yelwa issue is the fact that Peter Jasper Akinola has consistently and defiantly refused to criticize mass murder by people who claimed to be part of an organization (the Christian Association of Nigeria). He has been offered several opportunities, yet he cannot manage to muster the civility or the integrity to say "mass murder is wrong."
If people claiming to be part of an organization I headed had committed mass murder, I wouldn't bloody need to be ASKED to condemn it. You wouldn't be able to stop me condemning it at every opportunity and with every means at my disposal.
Of course, I believe that mass murder is evil.
I can only conclude that the odious archbishop does not share my view.
Leonardo,
ReplyDeleteSure would, if they came to Australia. But seriously I am sure they will be asked about this sooner or later. Most likely sooner.
Obadiah Slope
Malcolm,
ReplyDeleteIf you have any evidence that Akinola took part in, ordered or supported the yelwa massacre, please present it.
Obadiahslope
It's a "Caesar's Wife" thing, Obadiah Slope. Enough for me, given Akinola's position as a "Christian" leader, that there are reasonable grounds for suspicion in this matter, based in no small part on thinly veiled threats that Akinola himself has uttered against Moslems, and that he has made no attempt whatever to dissociate or distance himself from Yelwa.
ReplyDeleteWe both of us know perfectly well that if suspicion this serious hung over the Presiding Bishop, she would be hounded incessantly by those who bury their heads in the sand where Akinola is concerned. The matter is too serious to fall under the "four legs good" mantra, OS.
Robroy,
ReplyDeleteNo one has said anything favorable about the Islamic approach to LGBT. The comments made are made because we have (actually we do not but we hope we do) some sway within our own community, the Anglican Communion. I would suggest that if you do not want to draw the ire of the Anglican Community you simply depart. At that point we treat you and yours just like any other OUTSIDE denomination.
As to the cutting out of "free speech" by the LGBT community, I think you are grossly misinformed and/or you do not understand hate speech.
The question of why some of us are quicker to criticize Arbp Akinola than Nigerian Muslims is worth addressing. The simple answer is because Arbp Akinola is a brother in Christ and an Anglican. He is part of our family, whether we like it or not, and we have a responsibility to speak the truth to family members.
ReplyDeleteAnswering robroy or obadiah is like spitting in the wind. The very fact that they attempt to defend Akinola is patently offensive to any person who claims to follow Christ. I'll let Jesus speak for himself here, through his rant at the Pharisees:
ReplyDelete"Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?"
Loving God and loving one another as Jesus loved us precludes all the silly hatred and scare tactics of the right-wingers.
Akinola and those who engage in spiritual, physical, or mental abuse of any Christian or any child of God need rebuking and, if in holy orders, a hauling before an ecclesiastical court. Not back-and-forth arguments which imply they have a valid stance. They simply do not.
Both of these gentlemen have been hanging around "liberal" Episcopal blogs for years dropping bombs into the comments and neither ever answers a question directly -- just more conservative cant and attacks on the people who raise the questions.
I am praying for my brothers and sisters in Nigeria and throughout Africa. The idea that there will not be ceremonies of marriage due to fear of the new law shows a very naive understanding of human nature. Marriages will simply remain underground and hidden, as they exist now.
Since a marriage is a covenant between two people before God, it doesn't matter one whit what Hateful Akinola and Orombi say or do, they can't stop gay marriage.
They can continue to deny the basic civil rights of LGBT Africans and persecute and punish them severely in the name of God for what they are, if they can live with that millstone around their necks.
They have absolutely no power over what the African LGBT people do in private, praise God. And that is how it was once delivered, has always been, and forever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Perhaps, Obadiah, you might try reading what I wrote.
ReplyDeleteMy criticism of the odious hatemonger does not hang on him having had any conection to the events in Yelwa. It has to do with his refusal to criticize or condemen the events in Yelwa.
The mass-murderers of Yelwa were wearing shirts and badges identifying them as members of the Christian Association of Nigeria. This is a fact.
Peter Jasper Akinola was the president of the Christian Association of Nigeria at the time of the attack. This is also a fact.
There are a number of possible interpretations of the events, but they come down to two main streams. Either the Christian Association of Nigeria and its president approved or they disapproved of these acts.
Now, if I were the President of the Christian Association of Canada and a gang of thugs wearing shirts and badges identifying them as members of the Christian Association of Canada while they murdered hundreds of people, I know how I'd respond. Indeed, I know how any reasonable, sane and Christian person would respond.
I would condemn it. You wouldn't need to ASK me if I condemned it. I'd bedemanding access to the media to condemn it. I'd be taking out full page ads in the paper condemning it.
Yet despite being offered numberous opportunities, Peter Jasper Akinola has consistently refused to condemn an act of mass murder committed in the name of an organization of which he was president.
Again, we are left with two possible explanations:
- Peter Jasper Akinola approves of the massacre of Yelwa Muslims, or
- Peter Jasper Akinola is an idiot.
I grant that there is nothing making the one inherently more likely than the other.
Malcolm writes,
ReplyDelete- Peter Jasper Akinola approves of the massacre of Yelwa Muslims, or
- Peter Jasper Akinola is an idiot.
Malcolm presents a dichotomy. If I said that President Obama wears dresses and high heels, should he deign a response? Of course not. And if he doesn't respond to my wild accusations, is this an admission of guilt. Of course not.
So the first option is eliminated leaving Malcolm's soul in grave danger: "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Let us hope that it was a false dichotomy.
Wow. Ms Priscilla fails to understand the verse she quotes, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?" Jesus, in this passage, argues that tradition cannot trump the law. He gives an example of a loophole allowed by tradition where Jews could avoid following the commandment to honor their parents. The complicated pre-meal washing of hands arose from tradition rather than the law. Jesus goes on to say a few verses later, "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, theft, false testimony, SLANDER."
++Peter Akinola has brought more people to Christ than probably all the bishops of the TEC. He isn't like the teachers of the TEC: "The time is coming when people won't listen to good teaching. Instead, they will look for teachers who will please them by telling them only what they are itching to hear."
AS far as I can tell, there was the Atlantic interview and possibly one other, where Akinola did not answer a question about the Yelwa massacre. This does not amount to "consistently refusing to condemn" anything as the questions were not posed as "Will you condemn mass murder" neither is it "numerous opportunities" to respond. (If you are aware of other interviews with Akinola, please point to them) Were you a member of a third world country you might not want to answer US questions fulsomely. I am not saying that is his reason (how would i know?) but it would be an understandeable one.
ReplyDeleteI do not defend the Nigerian legislation, I would not vote for it. The barrage of innuendo about Akinola lessens the chance that he will listen if anyone tries to persuade him to change his mind.
Obadiahslope
Hi obadiahslope. You wrote: "AS far as I can tell, there was the Atlantic interview and possibly one other, where Akinola did not answer a question about the Yelwa massacre. This does not amount to "consistently refusing to condemn" anything."
ReplyDeleteBut according to the Atlantic Monthly article ("Glod's Country," April 2008), Akinola did more than "not answer a question."
When asked if those wearing name tags that read “Christian Association of Nigeria” had been sent to the Muslim part of Yelwa, the archbishop grinned. “No comment,” he said. “No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naive to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet.” He went on, “I’m not out to combat anybody. I’m only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I’m living my faith, practicing and preaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to God, and they respect me for it. They know where we stand. I’ve said before: let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence.”
Nice try fellas.
ReplyDeleteThe President (now Past President) of the Christian Association of Nigeria refuses to comment on an act of mass murder committed by persons identifying themselves as members of that organization.
Now, when asked about the event, he had an opportunity for real Christian witness. He had the opportunity to condemn the act.
He refused to take that opportunity - not only in the one interview, but in several inquiries since.
Now, the possibility that Peter Jasper actually approves of the mass murder of Muslims is quite disturbing, and most of us would prefer to believe it is not the case.
The other possibility (an Lord knows, I hope it is the correct one) is that Peter jasper is merely an idiot - at least on the subject of media relations.
However, I'm baffled that he'd even need to be asked. Surely he would want to distance himself from the satanic actions of people claiming to be his supporters. Surely a competent and honest leader would have sought out opportunities to do so.
Your feigned concern for my immortal soul would be touching, robroy, if I believed it for a second. I suggest you might spend a moment being concerned for Peter Jasper's soul since he cannot seem to grasp why he would want to condemn murderous violence carried out in his name.
And BTW, robroy, your Obama example is utter bumph. That the murderous mob at Yelwa purported to be part of CAN is a well-established fact supported by the testimony of credible witnesses (and I believe by documentary evidence as well). If you make a perverse accusation against President Obama, it is an undocumented fabrication from an individual with a long track record of making stuff up.
Hmmm.....
ReplyDeleteSeveral thoughts:
First ABp Akinola has threatened violence towards Muslims in the past. Most recently in my memory when there were some unconscionable murders of Christians by Muslim youth a couple years ago.
I do not know if he has any complicity in the Yelwa killings or not. I do know that as head of the organization that is associated with them, he made no effort to condemn and no visible effort to investigate them.
That to my mind disqualifies him as a clergy person. He has failed in the duty to care for those in his ministry's area. He has failed to exercise reasonable oversight of an organization he headed. Others may reach other conclusions.
I do think it is important to note that Obadiah is not Rob Roy and some here are being a bit unfair. If we demand justice for or of ABp Ainola, we should exercise it.
Obadiah and I have discussed a number of topics here and elsewhere over the years. He even visits my little blog now and again.
He is a bit legalistic as most conservatives are. That shows up in demands for evidence. But please note that unlike Rob Roy, Obadiah clearly and completely condemns the violence Rob Roy ignores or talks around.
I am reminded of the book title chosen by the late Senator Goldwater Conscience of a
Conservative. Obadiah has a Conscience and exercises it.
FWIW
jimB
"No Christian would pray for violence" is Peter Akinola's way of saying Christian violence not something to be sought or encouraged.
ReplyDeleteRicK Warren put it this way
"He has been criticized for recent remarks of frustration that some felt exacerbated Muslim-Christian clashes in his country. But Christians are routinely attacked in parts of Nigeria, and his anger was no more characteristic than Nelson Mandela's apartheid-era statement that "sooner or later this violence is going to spread to whites." I believe he, like Mandela, is a man of peace and his leadership is a model for Christians around the world."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1187221,00.html
Akinola began as primate by elaborating a vision for the Church of Nigeria under chairman Ernest Shonekan, a former president of Nigeria.
This included a section on tolerance
"I want to talk about inculcating the virtues of religious tolerance and building bridges of understanding across religions in our country. With the recent unfortunate developments in parts of our country still fresh in our memory, you will agree with me that in order for the Church to continue to be relevant in the 21st century Nigeria, we would need to focus attention on the issue of tolerance of adherents of other religions and vice versa. With the massive carnage, wanton destruction of lives and property that some miscreants perpetrated in the name of the God of peace (the Bible calls our Lord Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace), recently in parts of the country, it seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with our norms and values. But I believe we need to rise to the occasion before it deteriorates further. What secretarian strife can do is well known to us all. With the examples of the civil war in Lebanon and the continuing stand-off in Northern Ireland, we can least afford sectarian violence in Nigeria. What we need now is national unity; a nation that is at peace with itself irrespective of ethnic and religious differences among its people. How can the Church play a role in building and nurturing a spirit of tolerance and understanding? I expect that we will ponder over this as we attempt to develop the vision. The strength of our country is in its diversity and all religious bodies owe it a duty to work for the unity and peaceful co-existence of all groups in our country."
Obadiahslope
Here's a report of Akinola not only condemning violence but of threatening to resign as CAN president in protest at violence by young Christians.
ReplyDeleteCT:It’s tough for us in the West to really understand all the dimensions of your local context.
Akinola :It’s not just you. It’s the entire Western press. I’ve been getting phone calls, but I said no, I’m not going to talk. If they want to know what’s happening, come to our country. Since 1988, where there’s suffering, this comes from our Muslim neighbors. We have never on our own initiated any attack on anybody. Never. And that’s because our youth were willing to take our advice. But now they’re accusing us and calling us names—what do we do?
We could say, “Okay, go ahead.” But we would never do that. Our religion, our Christian faith, our love of God, our love of fatherland, would never allow us to do that.
During a recent CAN meeting, I threatened to resign, because the youth were saying they were going to go to fight and cause more trouble. If they cause more trouble, I will resign. Everybody sat down, kept quiet. We can’t destroy this country. Violence is not the answer.
We are working between two evils. But like I said, we’ve been able to control these boys, and we’re going to try everything we can. But our word must be credible to them.
CT: Why do the youth want to fight back?
Akinola: They’re simply bitter, they’re simply angry. They’re simply fed up with it. And they say to themselves that maybe if we fight back, the [Muslims] will know they don’t have the right to take life at will. So it isn’t that their Christian religion is telling them to go out and fight. You forget, in the West, the Crusades were a response to 400 years of Islamic aggression in Europe. Don’t forget that. Don’t you ever forget that. They didn’t just happen for the fun of it.
We pray that [this violence] will never happen again. So, we talk to the governors, Muslim leaders, other agencies. But we have to insist that all those arrested this time must be brought to justice. This is important for future peaceful coexistence. If these boys are arrested but get away with it, then the future is bleak.
http://www.globalsouthanglican.org/index.php/comments/reactions_to_violence_in_nigeria_archbishop_peter_akinola_explains/
I urge readers here to examine all the evidence about Akninola and not to be selective. Just as it is reasonable to urge conservatives to read carefully all your PB says and weigh the evidence carefully.
Obadiah Slope
The business about Archbishop laughing or smiling or whatever in response to a question about the Yelwa massacre is offensive. The article's author was none other than Frank Griswold's daughter, and her bias was palpable.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, we could discuss IRD conspiracies and the "secret" Chapman memo (which was a public memo BTW) and other attempts to slander the orthodox.
And let me repeat, ++Peter Akinola has brought more people to Christ than probably all the bishops of the TEC (who have probably led as many away from Christ as they have led toward Him).
Robroy, thank you for adding to my too-long post and completing the scriptural conviction of Akinola and yourself. I quote (since I don't understand scripture):
ReplyDelete"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, theft, false testimony, SLANDER."
Since you highlighted the sex and slander parts, I will highlight the evil thoughts (gays are destructive, harmful beings), murder (Yelwas can stand for now but I refer to the murder of gays), adultery I don't know or care about, theft (we could look at the theft of human dignity but the Nigerian government does a pretty good job with the country's oil profits), false testimony (just read Akinola's statements), and we'll keep slander.
Akinola's statements in support of the Nigerian law are slanderous beyond the pale.
I agree with you Robroy that Jesus clearly indicted Akinola and yourself in pointing out that you skate through loopholes of the law and your heart's output is clearly sinful. I will pray for you both.
Griswold's daughter and therefore a liar, RR? A fine one to be slinging around accusations of "palpable bias", aren't we? "Four legs good ....."
ReplyDeleteSo referring to a memo which was "public" (ie, circulated without restrictions) but not "published" in any meaningful sense until it fell into the hands of a liberal, a memo which deliberately set out a series of steps to alienate property from the property owner is slander. But the complete and utter BS that robroy, Greg Griffiths and others make up whole cloth isn't.
ReplyDeleteYou lot do know what Jesus thought of hypocrites, don't you? After all, he expressly and specifically condemned them in plain words, as recorded in scripture. Don't even need to read anything in based on what one assumes a first century CE rabbi would have thought.
Obidiah Slope provides some wonderful references. Here is another from Ruth Gledhill's interview:
ReplyDelete"We began to see certain threats in the north," says Dr Akinola. "Religious disturbances, crises, rioting, to the extent that Christians were killed and maimed and properties looted." His response was informed by his missionary vocation. "By virtue of our religion we cannot fight because we are told, if you are slapped on the right cheek you must turn your left cheek. Love your enemy and pray for him. So how do we respond to these unprovoked attacks on Christians? Evangelism is the answer. Make the Church grow."
The bigger the Church gets, the fewer conflicts Christians will face. "That is what we believe. So we have put ourselves into the work of mission very seriously."
But I doubt that any number of quotes will suffice to cease the liberals' attempt to demonize and slander ABp Akinola.
Lapinbizarre, liar is an ugly word and it is your word not mine. But you are correct that I am biased - palpably so! I don't feign to be an impartial journalist.
Ms Priscilla, you skipped over SEXUAL IMMORALITY in your attempt to slander ABp Akinola. What do you think that entailed to Jesus, a first century AD Jewish rabbi?
Malcolm one hardly needs a "secret" memo to know that +Bob Duncan thinks that churches should be allowed withdraw from an apostate organization with their property. His opinion is a matter of public knowledge. (You can check the trial notes from the ungodly lawsuit of Harold Washington of Calvary Church against his bishop.) And I know that Louie Crew, Susan Russell, et al, are working to have a homosexual presiding bishop. So there aren't any trench coats, fedora hats, and dark sunglasses.
But back on topic: The Nigerian legislation only differs from the legislation of the majority of states here in the U.S. in that it designates a penalty for violations - get out your teaspoons and stir faster! You will make your tempest in a teapot, yet.
An ugly word indeed. Not to forget the rule that "one only implies that a lady is a liar".
ReplyDeleteYou know, I read a lot of tap-dancing here, but I still don't get a clear answer from either robroy or obadiahslope. So I'll reiterate the question:
ReplyDelete"I would like to know whether other Global South leaders, and in particular, Chris Sugden and Martyn Minns, agree with the content of the position paper and the attitudes expressed about LGBT Anglicans..." and "Do the various organisations which are connected with the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion) support in its entirety the position paper presented in the name of Archbishop Peter Akinola at the hearing on Wednesday?" Simple questions and yet I am reading about Yelwa massacres, Gene Robinson, etc., all effectively dodging the question.
Robroy
ReplyDelete"But back on topic: The Nigerian legislation only differs from the legislation of the majority of states here in the U.S. in that it designates a penalty for violations"
Is it true that the majority of States in the US have legislation against speaking out in favour of homosexuals or be seen having a coffee with them?
The proposition was floated some months ago that a reason for the Akinola Church's support of this legislation could be that it might be used to criminalize TEC activities in Nigeria on the grounds of the Episcopal Church's "support for homosexuality".
ReplyDeleteHillbilly,
ReplyDeleteOh dear I thought I was as clear as I could be on what you have asked. AFAIK Martyn Minns and Robert Duncan are attending the Nigerian meeting. When they are next within the reach of western media, they will be asked the important question you raise.
OTOH you or another poster may be able to find something on Nigerian media.
But one thing that has changed in the last few months is that fewer reporters or lobbyists are travelling to far-flung Anglican meetings. We may have to be more patient with longer delays for information.
The post in response to Hillbilly was me. Sorry for leaving off my name. Obadiah Slope
ReplyDeleteErika (17/3/09 11:29 AM), I think that I answered your question earlier. Counterlight had made the assertion that the proposed legislation limited free speech to which I replied:
ReplyDelete---
Now, do I have issues with the criminalization of open discussion? Of course. I cherish the freedom of speech that we enjoy here. (And what is the greatest threat to that freedom? The "hate" speech laws being pushed by the homosexual activists.) It has been alleged (Counterlight 14/3/09 9:51 AM) that the legislation affects freedom of speech in Nigeria. "A lot more than "marriages" will be made illegal if this legislation passes. For example, this entire conversation would be subject to prosecution and prison." This is false from my reading of the text of the legislation (see here).
---
So no problems drinking coffee with homosexuals in Nigeria.
Arkansas Hillbilly, I can't speak for Bp Minns or Canon Sudgen. I reread the statement and was wondering what part might these "western" Global Southerners object to? The statement quotes a lot of Bible verses (no objection to that!) and states that marriage is for male and female and that the Church of Nigeria agrees that same sex "marriage" should be illegal (as it is in the vast majority of states here). Again, there is the bit of actually specifying penalties but that is pretty much irrelevant - if one makes the penalty three years or thirty years, either ensures that "marriage" ceremonies won't occur.
robroy = apologist for gaybashing
ReplyDeleteDo you like that better than "liar?"
Mark+, I have a lot of respect for you in that you patiently put up with my writings with which you most certainly disagree.
ReplyDeleteIt is unfortunate that Malcolm has to resort to such offensive and bitter remarks: hatemonger, odious, liar, etc., which violate your commenting policy. Now, he accuses me of being an "apologist for gay bashing."
The topic was Akinola and the Yelwa massacre. Malcolm falsely stated that ABp Akinola has never condemned the violence. Obidiah Slope and I have pointed out three very public occasions where ABp Akinola did indeed condemn unequivocally violence against Muslims. I can't say that I follow Malcolm's introduction of gay-bashing slur because I am pretty sure that none of the unfortunate Muslims were homosexuals. Or perhaps, is it that he is equating opposing same sex marriage with gay-bashing???
Robroy dear, you are such a selective reader, as any good conservative must be to live and remain sane. I said that I skipped sexual immorality since you had already bolded it. Silly Robroy!
ReplyDeleteAs far as the "good" Akinola and the relatively harmless legislation he is supporting, at least by Robroy's standards, I thought some might like to read the latest US State Dept. report on Nigeria and the Travel Warning from the same agency.
As much as it warms the cockles of the selective hearts of the conservative to think of dear Nigeria as a pleasant. if enormous evangelical African flock under the tender guidance of the gentle Akinola, the reality couldn't be farther from the truth.
The country is fraught with many dangers and troubles and Akinola's obsession with homosexuality does nothing good for his flock, rather it distracts him and his resources greatly from doing much needed shepherding work. A shameful legacy for supposed man of God.
Travel Warning:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_928.html
2008 Human Rights Report (issued 2/25/09)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/af/119018.htm
I'm still waiting to see where he condemned the specific acts at Yelwa, where people identifying themselves as belonging to the Christian Association of Nigeria (of which he was present) committed the mass murder of Muslims.
ReplyDeleteOh, some vaguely worded language about violence being unfortunate is all very nice. Nothing too strigent mind - and nothing specifically distancing himself or his organization from that specific genocidal act.
And BTW, robroy, if you don`t want to be called a liar, one simple solution would be to tell the truth.
Priscilla
ReplyDeleteYou can no more blame Peter Akinola for Nigeria's shortcomings than you should blame Louie Crew for violent and dangerous neighborhoods in Newark.
The attempt to dismiss Abp. Akinola's involvement in the massacre of Yelwa is very disturbing. The evidence suggests that he was indeed involved at some level, if for no other reason than he was President of CAN at the time.
ReplyDeleteWhen this atrocious incident came to light, we had numerous discussions about it:
Akinola and the Massacre of Yelwa
to which we received this non-response:
From Nigeria
which led to a call for an investigation:
Akinola, What Was Your Involvement
The involvement of the International Criminal Court was the most likely factor that kept him from entering Jordan:
Akinola Refused Entry Into Jordan
Even with all of the public outcry, Abp. Akinola has still not denied any involvement in the massacre of Yelwa.
Come to your own conclusions.
But, for some of us, this incident, coupled with his previous calls for violence against Muslims, and with his version of the Windsor Listening Process (jailing all gays), is enough to consider Abp. Akinola to be a very dangerous man, with a history of the most unChristian behavior
Those who continue to be yoked to him can expect to be considered implicated as accessories to his crimes.
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