Here is a quote from Fr Dave Doveton: Vice Provost, Cathedral of St Mary the Virgin, Diocese of Port Elizabeth, Anglican Church of Southern Africa, noted over on Stand Firm who got it (two steps away) from here: Letter from South Africa on the forthcoming visit of Katharine Jefferts Schori. Apparently some are a bit nervous about the Presiding Bishop's visit to Southern Africa.
Here is what he had to say:
"... Like the German “Reichs Church”, the Episcopal Church of North America
has placed the authority of human experience, human desire and human
passion above the clear and unambiguous teaching of holy scripture in
its blessing of same-sex relationships. Its leadership has embarked on a
campaign to mollify and pacify disgruntled and offended Africans who
have demanded the Episcopal Church’s exclusion from the forums of
leadership of the Anglican Communion (and in most cases broken communion
with them). While other African Primates have taken a stand against
their heresy, Southern Africa has not.
There can be no compromise with clear manifestations of heresy. The scripture commands us not to invite false teachers into our home. When they refuse to repent, after repeated calls and pleading from all corners of the International Anglican Community, broken fellowship is the only response. If this is not done they will keep spreading their poisonous teachings until the whole body of the church is infected. It is said that the python hypnotises her hapless prey before crushing it and then swallowing it whole. Like a mouse before a smiling python – will we now be swallowed and absorbed to be spat out later, a pathetic little pile of half digested bones?
Or will somebody stand up?"
There can be no compromise with clear manifestations of heresy. The scripture commands us not to invite false teachers into our home. When they refuse to repent, after repeated calls and pleading from all corners of the International Anglican Community, broken fellowship is the only response. If this is not done they will keep spreading their poisonous teachings until the whole body of the church is infected. It is said that the python hypnotises her hapless prey before crushing it and then swallowing it whole. Like a mouse before a smiling python – will we now be swallowed and absorbed to be spat out later, a pathetic little pile of half digested bones?
Or will somebody stand up?"
Well, who indeed, this being real poop, not THE real poop, but you know, crap.
So now The Episcopal Church is heretical, filled with false teachers, unrepentant sinners, breakers of fellowship, poisonous teachers,(all of which we have heard before) but now with a PB who is a python, and a whole church compared to the "Reichs Church."
And, it is all about the blessing of same-sex relationships. Give me a break.
This essay is unworthy of the best in the realignment crowd (and there is a best), stupid, and well, crap.
The slander here is pretty straightfoward: it is from his mouth to the world.
That was one of the saddest, silliest, most deranged and most ignorant letters yet. How can people like him believe they're working for God?
ReplyDeleteAnd like the Reichschurch, the right wing enthusiastically gives its blessing to singling out and persecuting an entire class of people for entirely arbitrary reasons that fail all the tests of evidence, reason, and decency. Ein Bibel! Ein Lehre! Ein Kirche!
ReplyDeleteKinder, Küche, Kirche = Christianity
FEH!!!!!!
Good heavens, I would not be surprised if Fr. Doveton wanted to begin burning people at the stake. (I hope Katharine takes her asbestos vestments to South Africa.)
ReplyDeleteIn the end, such people will learn that trying to isolate themselves from ideas they don’t like, particularly in today’s world, will be to no avail.
Absolutely unbelievable crap from Dave Doveton! Goes to show that the South African Church has reactionaries like Doveton, as well as progressives, like Tutu. (Does anyone know if o’l Dave is an evangelical?)
ReplyDeleteKurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY
Titusonenine people respond appreciatively.
ReplyDeletePreludium is outraged.
Here is the TEC reality. Two religions.
Lots of good biblical wisdom says that can't endure.
Bart
That's right, Titusonenine appreciation of this news is 'beating up a queer for Jeezus sake.'
ReplyDeleteI see the new TLC is out. Great essays on colonial TEC and Covenant. Free of cant and sophistry. Honest presentation of different points of view.
Mark Harris: a blog free of ranting. Right.
Would that were so.
Bart
Sorry, but I have skin in this game. I don't have the luxury of looking at all the squabbling bugs in a jar from the airless heights of Olympus.
ReplyDeleteAdvocating the persecution of a whole class of people (see the comments of Scott Lively, and any number of Central African bishops, steadfast champions of the faith for the Titus crowd, and then check out what happened to Fanny Ann Eddy) is millions of light years away in form and spirit from any Christian faith I would recognize, or would want any contact with.
So Doveton called for a pogrom?
ReplyDeleteOdd, I didn't see that. He spoke the view of 2000 years of Christianity. Charity and mercy, inside of a clear sense of sexual relating in marriage.
It will require quieting the rhetoric if people are to take you seriously.
Other than in Religion I.
Bart
And I suppose comparing the Episcopal Church (and all who sail in her) to the Reichs Church and to a man-eating python is a fine example of charity and mercy.
ReplyDeleteFeh! Looks like malice and hatred to me, just one small step away from a pogrom (see Uganda).
As I said before, what's really worthy of Bishop Ludwig Müller and his Reichs church is singling out an entire class of people for completely arbitrary reasons that fail all the tests of evidence, experience, reason, and decency. Above all, they fail the test of the Gospel ("Love one another as I have loved you.").
Laying burdens on people that you yourself will not and cannot bear, sacrificing people on the altar of some purity code or in the name of doctrinal soundness is not the Christian faith, and it certainly is not good news for anyone.
A church that would in any way single out and denigrate or harm any one person or any group of people is not worth preserving.
Here endeth my side of this flame war. I concede nothing.
Perhaps you forget the Pink Triangles alongside those Yellow Stars. No apology needed, this is not a pissing contest of who has been persecuted more. This is calling out a clergyperson for his over the top rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteIn your own words, "It will require quieting the rhetoric if people are to take [him] seriously."
Bart wrote: "Here is the TEC reality. Two religions".
ReplyDeleteNope. Just one. The Episcopal Church. That would be us.
The others on T19 and SFiF? Not part of The Episcopal Church. Not even part of the Anglican Communion, even though they call themselves "Anglican".
One thing is very clear: Vice Provost Doveton makes Jesus weep.
Don't respond to Bart (Simpson, perhaps?) - he's just getting his childish jollies out of angering you.
ReplyDeleteMark Harris, in this case, I think it's not slander that's clear, but libel. He wrote it down and published it. It points to his severe mental and spiritual dysfunction that he did so. I find myself pitying him, somehow.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI read the crud from South Africa last night. One thing stuck with me in the narrative, Barth sat and listened. He did not as far as we know do so for effect, so he must have actually, honestly listened. If the self-anointed holy people would do that, what a lovely world we might have!
ReplyDeleteThis essay proclaims the "heresy" of the PB before she says one word. From the content it is fair to infer the writer has never met her, never listened to her. But he knows that someone should, "stand up." That is not judgement, not faith, not true religion, instead it is prejudice.
Jesus said, "A new command I have for you: love one another." Really, Fr. Doveton, really? You are so afraid of what she might say that you object to her appearance? Is that love for her, for the people she seeks to shelter?
Some, I pray, will listen in South Africa. Some in other countries might too. Will they agree? I don't know! I know that Bp. Joseph and Abp Daniel have visited Chicago from Sudan. We do not agree on every, indeed perhaps many points. But we do understand that Jesus is Lord, and we do understand that we have obligations to the people under their care. That is enough for us. Sadly, it appears that it is not enough for at least one South African.
FWIW
jimB
Well there it is. Liberal fundamentalism.
ReplyDelete"Nope. Just one. The Episcopal Church. That would be us.
The others on T19 and SFiF? Not part of The Episcopal Church. Not even part of the Anglican Communion, even though they call themselves "Anglican". "
Nice to see that the diversity canard is now out the window.
One TEC. Remove those who do not agree. Shrink down to .5M (for now). Figure out how to make this work. That's the present task.
Bart
The pogroms endured by the Jewish people throughout history only culminated in the 20th century. Any basic western european history will give the data.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of homosexuals (noun) is by wide admission a recent phenomenon. Going back to 19th century jurisprudence, and no farther.
Yes, comparisons of horrendous mistreatments are very useful.
On one account, those now to be shunned and removed from TEC are Christians with the faith and order of the BCP.
Bart
Bart
Bart - Who are you? Why are you so angry? I can almost see the frothing around the words you write.
ReplyDeleteTEC is TEC. We're catholic, protestant, evangelical and orthodox. Very comprehensive - fundamentally, foundationally, radically inclusive. It's the folks who have left - or those who should - who want to narrow it down to either evangelical or orthodox. No one has asked them to leave. They've left all on their own.
Might you be one of them? Is that why you're so angry and mean-spirited.
Be whatever you want to be: Anglican / Episcopal / Catholic / Protestant / Evangelical / Orthodox.
The most important thing is to be a good Christian.
You make a statement like that and then say I am the one who is angry.
ReplyDeletePeculiar.
Yes, titusonenine readers are all leavers or should leave.
The TEC of Keaton. Hurrah!
Bart
Bart is the new Franklin
ReplyDeleteAmen, Elizabeth.
ReplyDeleteword verification for this comment is "fiters" - there's "fiters" and there's lovers.
Ill take the "Word made flesh" as the authority of human experience, human desire and human passion above the unclear and wholly ambiguous passages of holy scripture in the blessing of same-sex relationships, just like Jesus did.
ReplyDeleteIn describing the opposition, I'll tone down the rhetoric to adjectives like stilted, unreal and boring- they still kill the spirit.
Ill take the "Word made flesh" as the authority of human experience, human desire and human passion above the unclear and wholly ambiguous passages of holy scripture in the blessing of same-sex relationships, just like Jesus did.
ReplyDeleteIn describing the opposition, I'll tone down the rhetoric to adjectives like stilted, unreal and boring- they still kill the spirit.
Bart. Let me tell you about T19. They banned me several years ago for asking what was on the menu at an "anglican" breakfast meeting in Plano, Tx. Banned for life for a little sarcasm.
ReplyDeleteA lesson from anti-oppression training: there is no hierarchy of oppression. When we begin to denigrate anyone's experience, including our own, because it isn't as bad as someone else's, we become accomplices in oppression.
ReplyDeleteStory now out that +RDW is stepping down.
ReplyDeleteBart
To hear a brother in Christ (and one that is also a priest) say these things made me both angry and sad. Besides displaying a lack of compassion and love for others, to use the analogy of the Reichschurch shows at the least a complete misunderstanding of what they were about. Unfortunately a sad lesson from history is that prejudice can cloud our judgment.
ReplyDeleteWhat did the Reichschurch do? They presented Hitler as another Martin Luther, a German hero that fought for Germany and against the Jews and as as a divine savior figure like Jesus. In the words of Paul
Althaus (a German theologian who supported Hitler) Hitler and the Nazis gaining power in 1933 as "a gift and miracle of God."
I wonder what Desmond Tutu thinks about this, seeing a fellow South African Anglican clergyman speaking this way. Even more, if Dietrich Bonhoeffer was still with us, what would he say?