Thank You, Thinking Anglicans; Thank You Living Church

It is good when questions get asked and answers follow:

Thinking Anglicans asked if the Diocese of Dallas was seeking any sort of Alternative Primatial Oversight, and tonight (Thursday October 26) TA found an answer. It seems according to the Church of the Ascension web page that, "Bishop Stanton further said that he acknowledges and accepts that Bishop Katharine Jefferts-Schori is the duly elected Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church. Further, he has not and will not ask the Archbishop of Canterbury for oversight from an Anglican leader instead of being under the umbrella of the American church."

Let us hope that that answers that question!

It would appear that my muttering and mild mustard application was perhaps too harsh a suspicion. Pleasae forgive me. The Hot Dogma will have to be eaten without fixings.

Thank you Thinking Anglicans.

Earlier I asked about just who the Primates consulting with the eight diocesans seeking Alternative Primatial Oversight were and when they were going to meet. The Living Church is on the case. The answer is:The Most Rev. Peter Akinola, Primate of Nigeria; the Most Rev. Drexel Gomez, Primate of the West Indies; the Most Rev. Benjamin Nzimbi, Primate of Kenya; and the Most Rev. Justice Akrofi, Primate of West Africa. The Rev. George Conger, one of TLC's ace reporters, also told us where - Falls Church, Virginia.

Interestingly these four Primates are on the Anglican Relief and Development board, a subsidiary of the Anglican Communion Network. So it is a meeting of Primates already up to their eyeballs in realignment matters.

The claim is that their conversations will not preempt the Primates meeting in February. We will see.

Thank you TLC, and thank you George.


  1. The dioceses who unilaterally elect to put themselves under one or more of these Primates will thereby break communion with Canterbury. They will have put themselves into the position of AMia parishes.

    This will be a good development. I have long thought that the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion could not begin to heal until certain extremists on the right voluntarily removed themselves. This may be the beginning of that healing.

    Genuine conservatives will remain with Camp Allen and similar groupings. I think that when all is said and done the number of departures will be fairly small.

    Anglicanism has been through this before.

    But will Drexel Gomez give up his chance to chair the Anglican Covenant committee in order to pick up a few stray Episcopal parishes? One does wonder.

  2. "But will Drexel Gomez give up his chance to chair the Anglican Covenant committee in order to pick up a few stray Episcopal parishes? One does wonder."

    Will Rowan even require him to give it up if he did pick up a few stray Episcopal parishes? I used to think yes, but I'm not so sure these days.

  3. Do you really think that Duncan, Ackermann, et al will really give up being the center of attention in TEC to being nobodies under the thumb of Primatial Primates? They remind me of children who have tantrums and turn blue to get attention. Non-anxious leadership (systems theory) needed - replace them if they join other provinces. btw - who do they think will pay their pensions if TEC is no more? All the breakaway clergy I have met are still drawing their "dirty" TEC pensions.

  4. Pensions??? David Anderson is still calling himself "Canon" per his being an honorary canon of the Cathedral Center of the Apostate Heretic Diocese of Los Angeles. Go figure.

  5. I suspect Anonymous has a point. As more and more Primates link with US parishes, it becomes more and more likely that they will reciieve some form of recognition by the anglican Communion. It is possible that a motion recognising them in some way would pass at Lambeth. There are myriad other possibilities too, of course.

  6. Will Rowan even require him to give it up if he did pick up a few stray Episcopal parishes?

    Rowan will do whatever the fundamentalists tell him to do.

  7. "As more and more Primates link with US parishes, it becomes more and more likely that they will reciieve some form of recognition by the anglican Communion." - obadiahslope

    Rowan will do whatever the fundamentalists tell him to do. - anonymous

    I'm not convinced that Rowan will recognize them, though Lambeth might be hijacked again and that could happen, but I don't think that there is actually majoirty support out there for the boundary crossings among bishops. He just won't do anything, he won't recognize them and we won't disavow them. This seems to be his SOP lately. And they will just become more and more a part of our system.

  8. I was the one who sent the link to the Ascension webpage to Simon over at TA, and I've slept on this whole issue and think I've come to grips with it.

    +Stanton never did specifically ask for "AlPO," but rather for a "direct primatial relationship" with the ABC. This leads me to conclude several things:

    1) It accounts for the wording in +Duncan's recent posting on the Pittsburgh website.

    2) It allows +Stanton to spin things like he did to the people of Ascension (a moderate, mainstream parish in the midst of our "Network" diocese).

    3) It avoids the problematic concept of "AlPO," which doesn't exist in TEC's Constitution & Canons, and yet...

    4) It also allows him to present himself as aligned with "Anglicanism" vs. that horrid, apostate Episcopal Church when he talks to conservative parishes in the diocese.

    So, with a rather heavy heart, I've decided that it's all just spin, and that neither the Bishop's heart nor anything else here has really changed.

  9. Gentlemen/lady:

    There is nothing the matter with bishops from around the Anglican Communion meeting together and with others, who may share some of their particular views and approaches.

    Some of the comments, extrapolating from this, such and such, etc., tend to reflect some other assumptions, hopes, or etc.

    Let bishops meet with clergy and parishes. Let them have favorite places to go to.

    Why just the other day, Archbishop Desmond Tutu attended a consecration in Harrisburg, and preached well.

  10. Somehow I think the dioceses that don't ordain women forget that the ABC's wife is a priest.

  11. As I said on over at Fr. Jake's, I wonder what leadership could possibly take on the diverse definitions of orthodoxy among the conservative churches seeking AlPO? I certainly don't see Canterbury as orthodox enough for some. Honestly, I don't think the conservatives are really even fixed in their own agenda or definitions of what constitutes orthodoxy - high church, low church, no women, no gays, old prayer book, etc.

    If they leave, what would prevent further divisions among themselves as to what is or isn't orthodox. Majority rule doesn't seem to apply to this group. If the majority is disagreeable, they want to leave. Are they looking for a pope? I thought one already existed?

    Just some thoughts.

  12. There is a from Bp. Stanton now being circulated.

  13. Stanton's statement is still unclear. How does he and his fellow travelers understand a "Commissary?"

    I appreciate the Admiral's comment that any constellation can meet if they like. Indeed, if the Anglican Communion is a network of relationships, then meeting per se is quintessentially Anglican. Now, if they come from the meeting with a different relationship, offered from Africa and accepted by leadership of one or more Network dioceses, that result will in fact mean a change.

    A further comment: please give us something more than "Anonymous." I appreciate that some will not want to use real names, but it gets hard to respond clearly to two persons of different opinions both posting with no referent.

  14. Ooops -- I was wrong - Jane Williams is only a lecturer in theology. But here are 10 things you might not know about Rowan Williams:
    1.Rowan Williams is unable to drive. His chaplain used to drive him everywhere.
    2.He is hard of hearing in one of his ears
    3.He was a keen actor at Oxford, starring as Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons
    4.He learnt Russian in six months. He speaks seven languages, including Welsh
    5.He has had curious fashion tastes with a particular fondness for black berets
    6.He insists on always travelling second-class
    7.He is married to the daughter of the the Rt Rev Geoffrey Paul. Jane Williams' father is the former Bishop of Bradford and a highly respected evangelical leader
    8.Although he taught at a number of theological colleges, he is the only bishop never to have gone through training for ordination
    9.At school, he had a permanent note excusing him from sports
    10.He is very fond of classical music, particularly Renaissance Baroque and Bach
    from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/people/rowanwilliams_1.shtml


OK... Comments, gripes, etc welcomed, but with some cautions and one rule:
Cautions: Calling people fools, idiots, etc, will be reason to bounce your comment. Keeping in mind that in the struggles it is difficult enough to try to respect opponents, we should at least try.