7/16/2008
Uganda alone is left without a bishop present.
It would appear that at latest count only the Province of Uganda is without a bishop present at Lambeth. That too may not last. Nigeria, even with the supposed threats of discipline in place has one bishop present, as does Rwanda. So the absolute solidarity of the belt of Africa is breaking. It turns out that the bonds of affection has some weight. See The Friends of Jake and The Episcopal Cafe.
16 comments:
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Sir, you seem to be looking for and celebrating what you call division in Africa
ReplyDeleteSeveral Ugandan bishops came to meet with U.S. and other
ReplyDeleteAfrican bishops at the Emmaus conference last July in Spain. They would like to be at Lambeth, but the risk is great. Don't forget that Archbishop Orombi excommunicated the only pro-gay bishop in the country and took his pension, too.
Division or healthy diversity of opinion?
ReplyDeleteDuring my time at CDSP (not exactly a conservative seminary), two of our students were from Nigeria, one of whom was a fellow field education seminarian at a VERY liberal parish in San Francisco. Even when he was ordained as a priest, he sometimes presided at Eucharists there, and this was with the permission of his bishop back in Nigeria.
That definitely taught me that not everyone there is in lockstep with (apparently) Primate-for-Life, High Archbishopissimo, Grand Pooba Akinola.
Imagine if only 1 U.S. Bishop attended Lambeth. Would you celebrate that as evidence that there was some unanimity in the Communion?
ReplyDeleteYou're not only grasping at straws, you're now grasping at the dust from straws.
Clearly, if only one bishop turns up from each of the AC's major provinces, that's a huge hit for unity.
For you not to admit that, is spin worthy of a Bush press spokesman.
Jim of Michigan
Jim of Michigan:
ReplyDeleteWith respect, given the circumstances under which some have come (facing problems and perhaps even be jettisoned when returning), what it does say, at least to me, is that there is no uniform mind on the continent. There may be leanings this or that way, but the distinction is important.
It is also important to realize that neither Akinola or Orombi (etc.) speak for that whole continent.
The most important issue to me is that those who may have a different point of view will arrive at Lambeth and hopefully work through the process of difference in a respectful and dignified way. One cannot do that when they are voluntarily MIA.
Clearly, if only one bishop turns up from each of the AC's major provinces, that's a huge hit for unity.
ReplyDeleteWell, it IS huge hit in favor of Anglican unity, Jim-from-same-area-code-but-different-planet-from-me, if we were TOLD that these provinces were no longer (Canterburian) Anglican, but rather FOCA provinces instead!
I believe it was one "Jesus of Nazareth", Jim, who said "Nevermind the 99, celebrate the *one* lost-then-found sheep"! ;-)
“Don't forget that Archbishop Orombi excommunicated the only pro-gay bishop in the country and took his pension, too.”--Jim
ReplyDeletePerhaps we Episcopalians can do something about this. If some of these African provinces are ignoring our discipline, there is no reason for us to honor theirs. Perhaps this gentleman could be set up as a “missionary bishop” and eventually returned to Uganda once dissidents there are organized. What’s good for the goose...
cany,
ReplyDelete"...is that there is no uniform mind on the continent." Well, Duh. That would be true even if 200 bishops had not stayed away. That would be true of the American and Canadian provinces as well.
This is not about recognizing there are differences, any dolt can see that, this is about two provinces (and soon a third) who plow ahead with an agenda that the majority (not all) of the Anglican Communion vehemently disagree with.
There have been several opportunities to deal with this (Windsor, dar Es, etc.) what has come out of that is that the Canadian and American provinces (a majority, not all) don't give a tinker's hoot about what the rest of the world thinks or believes.
They have launched the good ship revisionism and it has sailed and it ain't coming back. Some of us don't like it and have moved on to other churches.
What will - and frankly should - come out of this is a friendly and amicable divorce. A new structure and a new communion (for both expressions). We cannot live under the same tent with these foundational differences. Better to shake hands and move on without the acrimony, lawsuits and endless meetings.
For all the carbon wasted on the Lambeth party, it would have been better to spend all this money (travel, lodging, food, etc.) on the PB's precious MDG goals.
So spare me the "they should be at the table" talk. They were at the table and they were disrespected and ignored, several times.
The actions of Bp. Griswold in agreeing to a statement about the Bp. Robinson consecration "tearing" the fabric was lived out by him presiding at the consecration.
Bp. Schori, by differing accounts, offered agreement at Dar es ..., and then returned and recommended otherwise.
So please, spare me the "can't we just all get along talk." Be honest for once and admit you want all of the dissenters gone. Some of us already got the message. The rest will soon.
Jim of Michigan
What I find amazing Jim-near-JCF, is if a divorce is what you want, why are you still here? You say you have moved on to other churches, but you constantly show up to shower us with your sour disposition. You can leave the church, but you cannot leave the church alone. Frankly, I think our part of the vineyard has received more than our share of your bovine fecal matter. You are over fertilizing.
ReplyDeleteThere is definitely a difference of understanding. We are sure of our convictions that Jesus Christ, Lord of the Church, through the Holy Spirit who leads us in all things, is inspiring all our actions represented in the events which cover my lifetime; understanding of the authority of scripture, women's vocation in priestly and episcopal office; sexual minority vocation in priestly and episcopal office, same-gender marriage celebrated in church community, etc.
I am thoroughly convinced of the correctness of our cause. You are as convinced of our error. I have heard your theological position in all of its permutations. You are just as familiar with our positions. We could repeat our positions ad infinitum, and you likewise, as has been done for 30+ years now, but not much will change.
You are convinced, along with Allen and Phil, that numbers prove your case. We subscribe to the 3 or 4 gathered in Christ's name. If it is truly of God who can fight against it?
You constantly speak of the majority of the AC. You constantly speak of the mind of the AC. But we know that those buckets are over generalizations which do not hold water.
Time and again ordinary Anglicans from the West, meet ordinary Anglicans from the Global South through mission and through diocesan twinning and discover that they are not of one mind. That these are not communion breaking issues for them because their lives are actually caught up in much more pressing issues of day-to-day survival.
The story of what occurred at Lambeth 1998 is out. We know how the Conference was high-jacked. We know how the so-called mind of the AC was ramrodded through a usurped process. I do not believe it to be the mind of the AC. That dog don't hunt.
The conservatives in North Anerica continuously harrange the one-note song of lack of accommodation. As an outside observer I have seen much attempt at accommodation, but nothing will satisfy the conservatives. I believe that a conservative parish can obtain a conservative priest, if they want one, even with a liberal bishop, in a liberal diocese. Just as a conservative diocese recently received a conservative bishop, as soon as the province was assured his intention was not to steal the patrimony. DEPA is available to all who honestly seek the accommodation.
At the same time, we keep hearing stories from the Global South of fierce denial of accommodation in monarchical provinces. To the level of primatial manipulation of episcopal elections and excommunication for difference of opinion with garnishment of pensions.
There are also the accounts of African bishops who share how the great masses of African Anglicans, of which we constantly hear, are, in reality not really Anglicans at all. At least not the catechized, baptized and confirmed Anglicans to which most are accustomed. As neither were many in the Virginia parishes now attached to CANA.
I could go on and on. You could return and rebut and rebut. It would be a never ending cycle. Neither convinced by the other's presentation.
I have a better idea.
Jim, go in peace to love and serve the Lord. God bless you richly in your endeavors to seek the Realm of God.
Nigeria is now unrepresented again. Ruth Gledhill reports that the one Nigerian bishop has succumbed to the various threats by his authoritarian primate. She also suggests that the good bishop is concerned for the safety of his family.
ReplyDeleteI guess that's what family values is about, then. Submit or they hurt your family.
Actually, according to Ruth Gledhill, Cyril Okorocha, Bishop of Owerri, Nigeria, was in England for his son's graduation in Manchester and is now back in Nigeria and not at Lambeth.
ReplyDeleteA new development on this threads original theme. Ms Gledhill says the lone Nigerian has fled England for home.
ReplyDeletehttp://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/07/lambeth-diary-n.html
I agree with David (dah-veed).
ReplyDeleteI'm also mystified why people who have already left the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion seem to remain so obsessed and fixated over them.
You're free! You've escaped! You're safely through the Estrogen Curtain!
It's time to move on and to start a new life in a new place and to make new friends.
"Vaya con dios my darlin'"
counterlight and david:
ReplyDeleteI never said I left the Anglican Communion. I currently worship in a growing continuing AMiA church in Michigan.
As an Episcopalian from birth (I'm 60 now) I loved my church, I grieve at where it is headed and angry that there was no place at the table for me or people who continued to believe what we have always believed.
My current bishop, Chuck Murphy, was one of those (like Bp. Robinson) not invited to Lambeth.
So I do have a dog in this fight, although I believe we should all just move on.
I show up here maybe once every two weeks, so constantly is a bit of an exaggeration, something I am very used to from those on your side.
So far I have been called a homophobe (although I have a sibling who is gay and who I love very much) I was accused of trying to "destroy" my church because I led a movement to study and seek answers to the actions of GC2003 and am regularly belittled on various blogs.
All of those things are not true. I love Jesus, above all. I seek to serve him in my own pathetic, meager ways. I love everyone and believe they should be brought to an understanding and love of Jesus.
I spend much of my time on urban missionary work and support a number of African missions. All I do is not enough. I believe that the "gate is narrow" and that "Jesus is the truth, the way and the life" something not even my Episcoopal bishop would acknowledge although I believe he said those words at his consecration.
So if the host of this blog invites me to leave I will. I don't leave because another responder believes I should.
I know engagement and reason are not what you want. Capitulation is what you seek. Sorry, not happening.
Jim of Michigan
...constantly is a bit of an exaggeration...
ReplyDeleteI know engagement and reason are not what you want...
I say constantly because your posts are the same whether here at Preludium or the other blogs where I see your posts.
Actually engagement and reason would be a refreshing change of pace from you.
Jim, I have no authority to throw you off Fr. Mark's blog. That authority belongs to him alone, and God has blessed him with much patience.
Even a gay person can be homophobic! I have met and engaged many with deep seated internalized homophobia. Having a gay sibling does not mean that you are not homophobic, but I do not recall a post that would get you that "honor" from me.
But you are so unhappy, so negative, and mean most all of the time. I do not recall any post from you that is not tainted with sarcasm and dripping snarkiness.
Perhaps you are in a deep cycle of grief. It colors all your participation.
Where is your joy in the Lord? Is there nothing positive of which you could write or share?
One of the mantras of my life;
God, who is the Source of Life calls us to live fully;
God, who is the Source of Love, calls us to love wastefully;
and God, who is the Ground of all Being calls us to be all that we can be.
I pray it may also be true for you brother Jim-in-Michigan.
“I never said I left the Anglican Communion. I currently worship in a growing continuing AMiA church in Michigan.”-Jim of Michigan
ReplyDeleteAMiA, Jim? It looks like you have left the Anglican Communion to me.